An Education on the Situation in Ukraine

[smokendevo]

This is a repost of a thread on another forum but I could not have said it better. Since I am a Ukrainian and still have family over there this is very close to my heart.

Anyone who says "We have no business being involved in the Ukraine situation" is speaking from ignorance. Ukraine once had the ability to defend herself, with the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. But in December 1994, Ukraine VOLUNTARILY gave up that arsenal; in return, the United States, the United Kingdom and Russia entered into a signed agreement called The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, which committed the signatories to the following:

1. Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders.

2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine.

3. Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine in order to influence its politics.

4. Seek United Nations Security Council action if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.

5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against Ukraine.

6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding these commitments.

China and France later gave individual statements of assurance as well.

Ukraine had the means to protect herself, yet in the interest of world peace and harmony placed her future in our hands. We have an obligation to offer more support than empty platitudes. Pray for the people of Ukraine - any blood spilled will be on our hands.

Please feel free to share this information in order to spread the word - I was astounded at the number of people who are not aware of the Budapest Agreement.

[teesquare]

It is a sad and scary time Devo. I feel for the Ukrainian people. If you read the history of the relationship between Russia and Ukraine, going back as far as 1000 years, it appears there has always existed a feeling on the part of Russia of "ownership" of Ukraine. My comment is not to politicize the issue, or defend Russia in any way. Brutish aggression of this sort is hard to comprehend.

It is further confusing that in 1954 Russia ( at the time USSR/CCCP ) gave Crimea to Ukraine via Nikita Khrushchev's possibly drunken speech.  Why? Was it an apology for the USSR taking all of the Ukraine's food production for USSR consumption?

[deestafford]

Let me expand on the situation a little more. In 2005 Sen Obama and Sen Lugar went to Kiev on a mission to convince the Ukraine to give go along with a bill that they had pushed or were in the process of pushing that helped destroy more than 15,000 tons of ammunition, 400,000 small arms, and 1,000 anti-aircraft missiles in Ukraine.  This was disarmament of the Ukraine with the promise that the US and others would protect the Ukraine if they were ever  attacked or threatened by an outside force.

In 2009 the administration stopped the deployment of the missile defense systems we were going to deploy to Poland and the Chech Republic which had been negotiated and agreed to by the US and all  parties involved.  This showed weakness to the Russians and other potential enemies.

This may sound political but facts are facts and consequencies are consequencies.  Dee

[sliding_billy]

Good information.  Thanks for sharing.

[muebe]

There is also another dilemma with this situation going on in Ukraine. By the world's reaction to the blatant disregard for Ukraine's sovereignty by Russia just shows countries like Iran that if you have nuclear weapons no one can or is willing to stop you.

All his time in office the President has been pushing to downsize the military and remove our nuclear arsenal. Imagine what would happen to us if we did not have our nuclear capabilities?

I highly doubt that Russia would even be in Ukraine right now if they still had nukes.

So after this every country who has nuclear weapons would be stupid to give them up and countries who do not have them will seek to have them. North Korea will be so emboldened after this.

And sanctions are worthless. They take years to have any affect and there are many countries who will still buy oil and gas from Russia. 

Russia saw the weakness of our President and a opportunity to try and reform the USSR one piece at a time.

[veryolddog]

Interesting discussion.

All of this is moot. Putin has what he wants and this is the end of story. In addition, if he wants more, who is going to stop him? He is fulfilling Russia's historical quest for a warm water port that will allow him to have access to the Mediterranean. This has been on-going since Catherine the Great. And, he wants to make sure that Eastern Europe remains under the thumb of Russian influence as a buffer to the West. Again, who is going to stop him?

Putin has placed Russia in the forefront of leading international politics. He has replaced the USA as the most influential sounding board in the Middle East; He has Russian gas and oil to provide to Western Europe;  And, he has the most formidable military force in the European theater. Soon, they will renew their allegiance with China and provide support and legitimacy to China's desire to acquire Taiwan and outlying Japanese territories.

I guess that the idealism of "RESET" did not work. In any event: "what difference does it make?"

[spuds]

Caught between the East and West. I just hope for no bloodshed,we dont need another Bosnia.

[teesquare]

I am letting this thread go in the direction it has because we have been "civii". Please let us not turn this into a bashing of any American politicians. Then the discussion becomes divisive, whether intentional or not.

[deestafford]

One interesting scenario I heard involves oil and gas.  As most of us know Russia supplies much of the energy needs to the Ukraine as well as most, if not all, of Western and Eastern Europe.  The proposal was for us to go balls-to-the-wall on producing all the oil and natural gas we can (Which we have in abundance.  Perhaps more than any country in the world if we would just go get it and build new refineries.) then we can use that as weapons by providing the energy needs of the Ukraine.  This would severely reduce the strangle hold Russia has on the Ukraine.

Of course, if Russia wants to take Ukraine by force nobody is going to try to stop him.  Oh, there will be talk of sanctions and how Putin is not playing by 21st century rules and that it will cost them in financial punishments by other countries.  I don't  think it will make any difference because no country will think going to war over the Ukraine will be worth it and right now the world has no stomach for any military action.  Same situation the globe was in in 1937 when a little painter from Austria got brave and started his expansion program. I think that alligator ate many appeasers before he was finally declawed.

On the world stage there are two types of individuals: takers and the taken.  It's been that way throughout history and will never change.  The only way to stop or prevent a taker is to be stronger than he is and let him know you can and are willing to take him.

Tee, I agree as long as we are not talking about specific, derogatory things as far as certain political individuals are concern.  As long as we keep it geopolitical I think we will be all right.  We can discuss how reducing a country's capabilities invites aggression as it shows weakness to the aggressor as long as we talk about countries and not individuals by name with the exception of Putin.

Dee

[spuds]

It stops at Poland and Romania,both Nato members.

As for Putin giving away their Naval base in Crimea,it aint,a gonna happen.Would be like USA giving up Pearl Harbor.Not Happening.

The EU and USA have been doing a lot of meddling in Ukraine,if Russia did that in Canada or Mexico do you think we would let either of these border nations get plucked away,putting the 'enemy' on our border? Heck no,same situation Russia finds itself in.

We in US and Europe need to keep our noses out of other peoples business and try fixing our own problems  instead.

Again,bummer for Ukraine but I dont want to see people dying there for want of corrupt Russian leadership or under the thumb of the corrupt IMF bankers as the West wants.Both are bad news for Ukraine IMO.

[deestafford]

Let's look at a little older history.  At one time Ukraine was part of Poland.  There were no Russians of any significant number until Stalin rounded up the Tartars of the area and hauled them off and put Russians there.  Stalin starved and killed between 4 and 10 million Ukraine people in the 30's and 40's.  We want freedom and liberty for the people of Ukraine whereas Putin wants them under the boot of Russian domination.  Putin was KGB---you can take the man out of the KGB but not the KGB out of the man.

You can only appease a hungry alligator with so many morsels of food before you run out of morsels and he eats you.

Dee

[smokendevo]

I can tell you the stories my grandparents told me when I was very young. They where not very good stories to tell their grandchildren. They lived in the Ukraine.  During the the Cuban missile crisis I had nightmares. I remember staying awake waiting for the air raid siren to go off. After the Russians left Ukraine things got better for my family and many others.................lets not let this Vladimir Putin turn the last twenty years in the other direction.

[spuds]

So what to do? Do you want us dropping bombs on civilians? WWIII with Russia?? I dont want to die for a pipeline and Bankers.

 You know who will be the cannon fodder and it wont be the politicians or bankers,it will be regular fine folks just like us.

Its up to the Ukrainian people to find a political solution there,not to bomb and shoot innocent men women and children who had nothing to do with the plots against the Ukraine.

Have you listened to this,back in feb of this year,of these 2 US officials talking who WE should put in power,and who has to go,who the puppet in charge is to be,who has to go,Ban Ki Moon from UN to give his blessing,after we run it past Joe Biden for his approval?? But we have to hurry,we dont want the Russians to get wind of this....

Neither east or West is acting in Ukraines interests,just land mass,an oil pipeline supplying Europe,and who will reap the spoils? Do we want innocent Ukrainians to die for that?

Not good,we ALL,East and West,need to get the Heck out of there and let Ukraine settle this politically.

Again,lets not kill innocent people.

Can I put in the link of youtube audio here?You can search for it there.

Its about the below,very eye opening on plotting in Ukraine,western version,I dont think the west cares much about Ukraine at all. ....just overthrow the government is how i interpreted it.

 Published on Feb 10, 2014

Victoria Nuland: US-Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs
Geoffrey R. Pyatt: United States Ambassador to Ukraine

talking about the following....

Jeff Feltman: head of the United Nations Department of Political Affairs
An international guy as the new president (?)
Robert Serry: Dutch diplomat serving as United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process
Ban Ki-Moon: Secretary-General of the United Nations
Jake Sullivan: national security advisor to Joe Biden
Joe Biden: Vice President USA
Viktor Yanukovych: President of Ukraine
Vitali Klitschko, the complicated electron: Leader of the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform and Member of the Ukrainian Parliament.
========================
Quite the mess for sure,But this Navy vet doesnt want war over a change in government.IMO it isnt worth destroying the country and killing innocents.Because both sides dont really care about the people at all IMO.

If the people of Ukraine want a shooting war,or civil war which is what it will be,thats their choice,not ours.But recent civil wars havent been good things,much suffering.I want no part of it.

AFAIK,people arent being slaughtered.Its a beautiful country with beautiful people,I prefer it stay that way.

As for the west,the line is drawn at Nato.If its crossed,yes we will have war.IMO.Then God help us all,the carnage will make WWII look like minor skirmish when death tolls come in.

BTW,Ive had this bad feeling since USA is 'suddenly' energy independent we are headed for war...,with many many capped wells in the Gulf of Mexico just waiting to be brought online,fracked natgas,and the worlds economic mess,we are headed for war.Is this the trigger?

Does anyone else think a war is coming?

Anywho,thats what Im thinking,FWIW.

[spuds]

Interesting discussion.

All of this is moot.

I guess that the idealism of "RESET" did not work. In any event: "what difference does it make?"

That is the bottom line,doesnt matter one iota what you me or anyone else here thinks.The Powers that be will decide,and what they decide is what will happen.We have zero input in that.

[veryolddog]

I am letting this thread go in the direction it has because we have been "civii". Please let us not turn this into a bashing of any American politicians. Then the discussion becomes divisive, whether intentional or not.

I, for one, advocate that this discussion be closed. You cannot have a constructive discussion of this topic without bringing into this discussion of American foreign policy and the destructive policies of this current administration. So many events, statements, reversal of actions and promises that have occurred over the last five years that led to this event. Unless I can illustrate my utter contempt for this segment of idealogues, this discussion only goes around in circles.

As the man said:

I guess that the idealism of "RESET" did not work. In any event: "what difference does it make?"

That is the bottom line,doesnt matter one iota what you me or anyone else here thinks.The Powers that be will decide,and what they decide is what will happen.We have zero input in that.

What is frustrating is that I have paid the price having so many surgeries to correct 23 years of service connected injuries to see this nation led down this path.

Pardon me, as I have to get a chicken ready to go on the pellet smoker, which by the way is made in America. Is your smoker made in America? By Americans; shipped by Americans? Or did you spend your money so that it could go support the economy of China?