I quit the other forum after 6 + years and over 6000 post

[GusRobin]

Well put and very thoughtful response, those are some of the reasons that I am enjoying what y'all have created for us here and even though some dislike Bradley and their forum, I find that, in spite of some QC issues they are experiencing they are attentive to customer feedback to the degree that's possible and I don't see customer service like they exhibit very often in other companies regardless of the industry. Hope I haven't violated any policies here by being supportive of both sites? If I have feel free to delete this at your discretion.

The Bradley forum is good for peer to peer support. I don't think it is, nor meant to be, a forum to discuss things with Bradley. While they monitor it, they rarely jump in. So it is not the place to go for customer support. Some folks get frustrated because of that. If a Bradley owner would first call Bradley customer support, most would have a better experience. Just my opinion based upon my personal experience.

[Saber 4]

Well put and very thoughtful response, those are some of the reasons that I am enjoying what y'all have created for us here and even though some dislike Bradley and their forum, I find that, in spite of some QC issues they are experiencing they are attentive to customer feedback to the degree that's possible and I don't see customer service like they exhibit very often in other companies regardless of the industry. Hope I haven't violated any policies here by being supportive of both sites? If I have feel free to delete this at your discretion.

The Bradley forum is good for peer to peer support. I don't think it is, nor meant to be, a forum to discuss things with Bradley. While they monitor it, they rarely jump in. So it is not the place to go for customer support. Some folks get frustrated because of that. If a Bradley owner would first call Bradley customer support, most would have a better experience. Just my opinion based upon my personal experience.

I don't disagree Gus, When I got to talk to a couple of the guy's from Bradley at the MWSO last year they commented on how much the forum helped them with customer support because so many people either got their problem solved on the forum or they had gone through the trouble shooting already which made it easier for them to send out parts. I've also have received some PM's and emails from Bradley staff and on some of it I think they would have been better served by responding on the forum.

I wasn't trying to promote the Bradley forum above this one, I was only trying to point out that I thought they were doing a better job than CB did with their forum along the line that T was describing. I would never do anything intentional to harm this forum or theirs as I love them both for their own purposes and I have loyalty for my friends on both.

[smokeasaurus]

There are some other good forums out there. I enjoyed my time over at the Q-Joint, i lurk and post once in a while over at a pellet grill forum.....but......this forum is my home and there is no place like home.

[pmillen]

I'm not sorry that you disagree, teesquare.  I'm interested in other perspectives.  I sometimes change my mind when I hear a good argument.  (Lord knows, that's been the case in my voting record.)

The Char-Broil management isn't stupid.  They aren't loosing anything except the costs associated with maintaining SOTG.
Sorry to disagree, but it is NEVER smart, or good business to ignore the core supporters of your product. They help a manufacturer predict trends, correct issues, and are better able to influence new product purchases by others - at street level - FAR more effectively than ALL advertising.

(1)  I think that the sales that are directly attributable to the forum community are probably only statistical "noise" when compared to C-B's overall sales volume.  I doubt that C-B would have noticed if those sales wouldn't have been made. 

(2)  Re: "...and are better able to influence new product purchases by others - at street level - FAR more effectively than ALL advertising."  Is paraphrasing okay?  Word of mouth is the best advertising.  Study after study has proven this common opinion to be incorrect.  (We may discuss viral advertising at some point.)  I'll make you a deal—For each study that you produce that proves that "street level advertising" is more effective than other forms I'll produce two that prove the contrary.  We'll see who runs out of studies first.

(3)  A few of the active SOTG members may correctly be categorized as "core supporters" but most (what, 95%, 90%—all guesses have equal weight 'cause we don't have data) are not.  Most are people looking for advice. 

The "hard core" members will either stay on SOTG in spite of the spam pollution or will move en masse to this community.  If they all move then the Char-Broil forum simply has a new address.  It still exists and still provides the same benefits to Char-Broil but, now, Char-Broil is relieved of all obligations relating to it.
Uh...if you look around here, and look at the post count activity, and all of the names that used to spend most of their time on the CB site...I think the evidence proves otherwise. The "hard core" users - that is the quality contributors have moved on from CB.

Yes, my point exactly.  The hard core users only had two choices, put up with the spam (okay by C-B) or build a new C-B community performing the same functions elsewhere (preferred by C-B).

Merely because CB is "large" is not evidence of current management decisions being smart, nor is it a predictor of future successes. One can always build a cheaper mouse-trap. And, that is where CB shines. Low cost for features. Not durability. [/b]

I agree with the above.  (I didn't say they were smart.  I said they aren't stupid.) 

Nevertheless, they aren't being stupid when they get someone else to take on the costs associated with their forum.
The only way you can try to influence C-B is by not purchasing their products or not supporting them with your advice and training for their new customers.  Based on what I've seen over the years those of you who do that sort of thing will not stop. 
This is something that I don't think we could have a gnat's influence in. The fact is, CB is the worlds largest producer of outdoor cooking equipment. That volume - is immense.

Again I agree.  That's why I used the word try and underlined it.  I thought that all readers would understand that I think that effort would be futile.  My mistake.  I'll try to write clearer in the future.

So C-B gets what they want.  You do, too.  You get to continue your chosen role as a recognized authority in some field.
I think what CB wants is to move ahead what they perceive as more hands-off marketing. Facebook is their main point of contact. ( It has definitely not been customer service in my experience.... ) They flatly have failed to capitalize on the opportunities afforded them via a well run forum. The data they could have collected to help steer their future to a place where the consumer felt they were responsive...just does not matter to them. That is not conjecture. That is based on the evidence of MANY of us, and our experiences.

Again, I agree. C-B management doesn't see a return great enough to warrant the investment in purifying and properly maintaining SOTG.  They probably have a grasp of the ROI.  As I've said, they aren't ignoring SOTG because it's making too much money for them.

I hate it. But, sometimes - when companies become the "leader" in a marketplace, the y begin to believe themselves invincible. That they are the leader because of what "they" did. They forget that is was the CUSTOMER that created the success....."Dance with the one that brung ya" means something more than a cowboy expression of humor. It is about understanding the basic tenants of your business, and how to build on those basics  - creating and re-inventing yourself without forgetting the very essence of that which caused your success......[/b]

[GusRobin]

Well put and very thoughtful response, those are some of the reasons that I am enjoying what y'all have created for us here and even though some dislike Bradley and their forum, I find that, in spite of some QC issues they are experiencing they are attentive to customer feedback to the degree that's possible and I don't see customer service like they exhibit very often in other companies regardless of the industry. Hope I haven't violated any policies here by being supportive of both sites? If I have feel free to delete this at your discretion.

The Bradley forum is good for peer to peer support. I don't think it is, nor meant to be, a forum to discuss things with Bradley. While they monitor it, they rarely jump in. So it is not the place to go for customer support. Some folks get frustrated because of that. If a Bradley owner would first call Bradley customer support, most would have a better experience. Just my opinion based upon my personal experience.

I don't disagree Gus, When I got to talk to a couple of the guy's from Bradley at the MWSO last year they commented on how much the forum helped them with customer support because so many people either got their problem solved on the forum or they had gone through the trouble shooting already which made it easier for them to send out parts. I've also have received some PM's and emails from Bradley staff and on some of it I think they would have been better served by responding on the forum.

I wasn't trying to promote the Bradley forum above this one, I was only trying to point out that I thought they were doing a better job than CB did with their forum along the line that T was describing. I would never do anything intentional to harm this forum or theirs as I love them both for their own purposes and I have loyalty for my friends on both.

Oh- my comment wasn't implying you were. I was just giving my opinion of the Bradley forum (which I like a lot). It really wasn't meant to compare forums.

[teesquare]

(1)  I think that the sales that are directly attributable to the forum community are probably only statistical "noise" when compared to C-B's overall sales volume.  I doubt that C-B would have noticed if those sales wouldn't have been made. 

In number of units sold, true. In VALUE of information - you are underestimating the power of core user group input. Not the "fluff number" of total members on any site. The REAL tinkers and "gadgetoligists"  The input by folks like TMB has allowed Char Broil to implement improvements to their products. And - there are others that offered many quality ideas to improve the value perception and that actual quality of the products. You cannot - as a a forward looking and thinking manufacturer - ignore the "true believers" in your products - and continue improving your line, and your image. Not possible. And the "core" that we are talking about are the folks that have been CharBroil loyalists for years - but, feel that they have beenignored, or that their input/loyalty/promotion of the CB product line has been treated as of no value to CB...I think it is dumb, and - it should be embarrassing for CharBroil

(2)  Re: "...and are better able to influence new product purchases by others - at street level - FAR more effectively than ALL advertising."  Is paraphrasing okay?  Word of mouth is the best advertising.  Study after study has proven this common opinion to be incorrect.  (We may discuss viral advertising at some point.)  I'll make you a deal—For each study that you produce that proves that "street level advertising" is more effective than other forms I'll produce two that prove the contrary.  We'll see who runs out of studies first.
So - the basic question I would pose to you is this: Do you tend to believe  - or give more credence to a paid spokesperson, and ad or anything directly from the manufacturer...? Or from a users of the products ....?
I can tell you that I have spent a large sum of money on the data I have - and...no, I will not produce it for you. It is to be used for a specific purpose But, I can assure you that the VAST majority of consumers will take the word of a user group many times over that of advertising. And - frankly - ia m shocked that you could feel otherwise. You too are a consumer...think about it....
My intent is to not argue with you - but to ( with a wink and a nod ) "not say" what I am trying to tell you. I have ongoing investment in something that truly proves you are behind the curve if you think that users groups/forum posts are powerless and weighted the same as "any other consumer".

[Saber 4]

Well put and very thoughtful response, those are some of the reasons that I am enjoying what y'all have created for us here and even though some dislike Bradley and their forum, I find that, in spite of some QC issues they are experiencing they are attentive to customer feedback to the degree that's possible and I don't see customer service like they exhibit very often in other companies regardless of the industry. Hope I haven't violated any policies here by being supportive of both sites? If I have feel free to delete this at your discretion.

The Bradley forum is good for peer to peer support. I don't think it is, nor meant to be, a forum to discuss things with Bradley. While they monitor it, they rarely jump in. So it is not the place to go for customer support. Some folks get frustrated because of that. If a Bradley owner would first call Bradley customer support, most would have a better experience. Just my opinion based upon my personal experience.

I don't disagree Gus, When I got to talk to a couple of the guy's from Bradley at the MWSO last year they commented on how much the forum helped them with customer support because so many people either got their problem solved on the forum or they had gone through the trouble shooting already which made it easier for them to send out parts. I've also have received some PM's and emails from Bradley staff and on some of it I think they would have been better served by responding on the forum.

I wasn't trying to promote the Bradley forum above this one, I was only trying to point out that I thought they were doing a better job than CB did with their forum along the line that T was describing. I would never do anything intentional to harm this forum or theirs as I love them both for their own purposes and I have loyalty for my friends on both.

Oh- my comment wasn't implying you were. I was just giving my opinion of the Bradley forum (which I like a lot). It really wasn't meant to compare forums.

Cool, just didn't want anyone else reading to take offense if I chose my words poorly.

[Ka Honu]

This is getting TLTR.

[CDN Smoker]

This is getting TLTR.

Please What's TLTR

[Smokin Soon]

"Too Long To Read"

[pmillen]

Yeah, it's an interesting discussion but we should probably wrap it up.  Others may not be as interested as we are.

I'll offer two more thoughts and allow you to make the last comment.

(1)  You wrote, "But, I can assure you that the VAST majority of consumers will take the word of a user group many times over that of advertising."

This is probably true when analyzing individuals, but advertising reaches an audience that is orders of magnitude greater than user groups.  If 100% of those who interact with a user group are interested in a product their numbers are miniscule when compared to 0.01% interested from a target population advertised to in a broad manner.  Chrysler Corporation isn't going to cancel their advertising campaigns, including Super Bowl, to focus on forums and user groups.

(2)  I have ongoing investment in something that truly proves you are behind the curve if you think that users groups/forum posts are powerless and weighted the same as "any other consumer".

I don't understand the "if you think that users groups/forum posts are powerless and weighted the same as 'any other consumer'" portion of that statement but I might be "behind the curve."  It's been a few years since I retired from product management.


This has been fun.  We (at least I) could have a pleasant evening arguing our cases.

[sliding_billy]

Interesting discussion guys.  Sometimes I can be spiteful when it comes to vendor support, and I know I am not the only one.  I still have my Char-Broil electric smoker (I like to use it as a warmer box or finishing oven), but the direction they took with the forum has put me in a place where I would never consider buying anther product of theirs or personally recommending one.  If someone had a question that I knew the answer to, that would be another story.  In that case, I am not helping them to generate sales since that person is likely already an owner.  I have been playing guitar (paid, unpaid and even sponsored), and similar events with one of my regular brands led me to a similar decision with their gear.  Neither the influence I have on folks' decisions about cookers or guitar are much more than a drop in a bucket, but vendors need to understand that they are not doing us a favor by existing and making product.  Speak with your dollars and voice folks.  that is what leverage you have.

[teesquare]

Yeah, it's an interesting discussion but we should probably wrap it up.  Others may not be as interested as we are.
That is quite alright - if they are not interest, they should ignore the thread. 

I'll offer two more thoughts and allow you to make the last comment.

(1)  You wrote, "But, I can assure you that the VAST majority of consumers will take the word of a user group many times over that of advertising."

This is probably true when analyzing individuals, but advertising reaches an audience that is orders of magnitude greater than user groups.  If 100% of those who interact with a user group are interested in a product their numbers are miniscule when compared to 0.01% interested from a target population advertised to in a broad manner.  Chrysler Corporation isn't going to cancel their advertising campaigns, including Super Bowl, to focus on forums and user groups.
Ahhh...NOW I understand where we were mis-communicating. For me, and the point I was trying to make is that forums and discussion groups are of much higher value because of the consumer feedback they provide. A manufacturer gets no post - sale consumer feedback from "advertising". Sales? Absolutely - and that is the need and justification for mass advertising budgets.
BUT...unless one is only concerned with a one time sale, and a vey short customer cycle - then..you need a mechanism by which you can consistently, and actively pay attention to customer satisfaction, needs, wants, suggestions. There is NO other inter-active - and I say better mechanism than the format that an on-line user group can furnish.
You were focused on the initial sale. I am focused on after the initial sale. It is my business philosophy ( via owning and selling 3 companies thru the years, all profitable  that it does not matter what business you "think" you are in. Whether it is manufacturing, car rentals, insurance or medicine...The ONLY business you are really in - and the ONLY thing that separates you from your competition is.....SERVICE AFTER SALE. Unequivocally - I have learned more about how my companies are truly thought of, and what customers genuinely want by pounding that montra.
Today - if you walk into our medical equipment company - and you ask any employee what is most important in their job - you will find a singularity of focus across the spectrum of job descriptions. And, there have been 6 of our competitors that have closed their doors this year due to their not adjusting to changing market conditions. We just finished our best year in the last 5.

(2)  I have ongoing investment in something that truly proves you are behind the curve if you think that users groups/forum posts are powerless and weighted the same as "any other consumer".

I don't understand the "if you think that users groups/forum posts are powerless and weighted the same as 'any other consumer'" portion of that statement but I might be "behind the curve."  It's been a few years since I retired from product management.

The shift in consumers feeling that they are no longer powerless against major corporations is changing. - The internet has replaced the need for complaint letters and lawyers in many cases.The "bully pulpit" that the internet affords anyone is something that has both positive and negative impact of course. There are a good number of examples of companies changing course, firing CEO's, stock prices rapidly responding to user group feedback, and so on.

This has been fun.  We (at least I) could have a pleasant evening arguing our cases.
Agreed. I think constructive "arguments" are always an opportunity to learn - and not used to inflame emotions. Unfortunately...that is often what is seen on the internet. We will not dis-respect one another like that on LTBBQ.  Thank you for the exchange!

[tnjimbob]

Tommy (TMB) -  I can't say thanks enough for your support of this former newbie on that site, and I value your friendship too.

SOTG was my first grilling/smoking forum, as I won a Big Easy from a local event here in Nashville, and through that site I learned some fantastic information about not only how to better use the Big Easy, but how to become a better outdoor cook as well. Tommy was always interested in what I cooked in the BE and was willing to offer suggestions to make it a better cooking machine.

So many folks that are now here on LTBBQ I met on that other forum, and when I was invited here (by TMB, of course!), I was glad to catch up with those folks and make new friends too. Tommy, you have been the catalyst for so many to better enjoy outdoor cooking in general, and cooking with CB products in particular. Keep up the great work!

Here's a big ole THANKEE!!!!! to TMB, Hub, Tim and the many others here who have made this place one of the best on the entire internet to come and learn, share experiences and photos of things we cook, and just to hang out. May this site be around for a long time to come. 

[TwoPockets]

This is getting TLTR.

You are right Old Wise One. For some with Adult Onset Attention Deficit Disorder it is hard for anything to hold my attention over a few sentences. In my case I enjoyed the CB forum first and spent a few years there, then moved to this one and liked it better and quit going there. Dropped my membership, no fuss, no big deal. As long as this forum continues to operate in the manner it does, and I have no reason to believe it will not, I will visit here daily.