Let's Talk BBQ

FORUM SPONSORS => Pit Barrel Cooker Co. => Topic started by: Bob c cue on May 07, 2015, 03:29:37 PM

Title: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: Bob c cue on May 07, 2015, 03:29:37 PM
Please excuse the long post but I am hoping to get some input from the PBC fans on this site. I occasionally post comments to the BBQ Brethren site and it is not uncommon for folks to respond that they could build one for under $100, and that the PBC is nothing more than a smaller UDS. It gets me worked up a bit and I usually try to respond that that PBC is not just any old UDS, but I usually don’t try to refute the claim that it can be built much cheaper than what you would spend on a PBC.

Well I got to thinking about the cost issue a bit more and realized that especially with the new porcelain coated version that it might be very difficult to build a PBC for much less than what Noah sells it for.  I actually talked to him the other day to help better understand the build process and what it might cost the do-it-yourselfer to try and build one himself. Below is what I put together and am looking for your comments or suggestions. I might eventually post this to BBQ Brethren site, but thought you guys might be open to helping me identify anything I might have overlooked or misstated so that I can make my arguments even better. Looking forward to any feedback you may have!

"Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
It is not uncommon for owners of the Pit Barrel Cooker, who are justifiably proud of their cookers, to be told by friends that although it might cook some good food, they could build the same thing for $50 - $100. Well folks, just because you say it that doesn’t make it so.

Granted, people have been building Ugly Drum Smokers (UDS) for years, and they are quite amazing and inexpensive cookers. However, as Amazingribs.com and hundreds of other reviewers have stated, the PBC is not just a regular UDS. There is something about the 30 gallon drum size (vs the standard 55 gallons), the hanging of the meat, the premeasured coal basket, and the very precise venting that makes the food that comes of the PBC out of this world.

But then you may say, “well I can build a UDS with a 30 gallon drum, buy some rebar and meat hooks and I can still spend less than $100." Well let’s look at that statement a little closer, shall we? I’ll review each component of Pit Barrel Cooker package and see what it might cost to duplicate.  And let’s assume for the most part that you will be using new parts. After all, the PBC does not use recycled drums, grates, etc., so you should factor that into your cost to build. This should be fun.

New 30 Gallon Drum: Pit Barrel uses new 18 gauge barrels built to their specs. They do not use adhesive to affix the bottom of the drum to the sides, and this is an important consideration as you will see below in the porcelain coating section.  We’ll set this issue aside for a moment and assume you will buy a standard drum. One of the best prices you will find online for an open lid drum is on Amazon: $71.95 + $34.54 shipping. Total: $106.49
http://www.amazon.com/SKOLNIK-Carbon-Steel-gallons-1-2mm/dp/B006P5ROWQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1430958200&sr=8-3&keywords=30+gallon+drum

Grill Grate 18 inches. Amazon with free shipping:   $16.99
http://www.amazon.com/Weber-7432-Cooking-Grate/dp/B000WEPFOK/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1430957286&sr=8-2&keywords=weber+grill+grates+for+18.5+kettle

Stainless Steel Hooks: Pack of 8.  PBC hooks are custom made, and are sturdy and very well made. The closest item I could find online was at Lions Deal Restaurant and Office Wholesale: $17.52 + $10.44 Shipping. Total: $27.96
http://www.lionsdeal.com/jr-9116.html

Fire Basket: You could make or buy an expanded metal basket for about $40 - $60, but the PBC basket is made of a heavy gauge steel ring and steel rod grate. A very conservative estimate to build your own or have a welder make one for you is $50.

Horseshoe Stand: Granted you do not need a stand for your barrel but to compare apples to apples we need to estimate what it would cost to build one yourself or have one made for you. Again, a conservative estimate would be about $15.

Hook Tool and Rebar: Nothing too fancy here, but let’s say a total of $8.

Two Jars of 4.7 OZ Rub:  These are included in your Pit Barrel Kit so we should include these in your estimate. They retail for $7.95 at the Pit Barrel website but let’s reduce the price a bit as you may be able to find two comparable bottles of rubs for a total of $10.

Porcelain Finish: This is where it gets really tricky. It is pretty safe to say that no do-it-yourselfer has the equipment, materials and expertise to apply a high quality porcelain coat to the barrel and lid. It is also doubtful that you could find someone in your area who could do the job. In fact, it took months of searching to find a company that was up to the task, and then it took countless test samples to get the process just right.

During the testing process it was determined that the barrels you will find at retail or in the scrap yard are not designed for porcelain coating. The adhesive used to affix the bottom on standard drums will not hold up to the 1550 degrees heating process used in applying the coating. The glue will blow out and prevent the porcelain from adhering and will create a very messy looking coating.  Pit Barrel Cookers have always been made without the adhesive bottom so this was a very happy accident. But for the sake of argument, let’s say you could somehow find a company capable of doing the coating and you could find a drum that is adhesive-free. What would you think this would set you back? We can’t imagine you could do it for less than $150. But to be generous, let’s say it would only cost you$100.

Total Estimated Investment (excluding your time and any gas you use going to the store to purchase supplies):  $334.44.

Cost of the Pit Barrel Cooker: $299.00. So the fine folks at Pit Barrel Company have saved you $35.44.
And think of the time and frustration you save. You have a choice: You could order your PBC today and be cooking some of the tastiest food you will ever have within just a few short days. Or you can think about building one yourself and most likely never get around to it. Even if you do get up the energy to take on this daunting project, think of the long hours of labor, the headaches in trying to source your parts and specialized labor (remember that porcelain coating), and the fact that you many never know the pleasure of eating the juiciest and most favorable smoked chicken ever. It’s your call, but I think I will be calling the Pit Barrel Company.







Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: smokeasaurus on May 07, 2015, 04:05:41 PM
One other thing to consider is the many hours of R & D to get the 30 gallon drum to perform the way it does.

While UDS style smokers are economical to build, somebody, somewhere, somehow came up with the proper venting to get the great results.

I started off reading your post and I was going to kill it, until I read this post through and it is a very good testimonial for PBC. I feel Noah and Amber should be applauded for all the hard work that went into the PBC and the very reasonable selling price...........with free shipping..............

Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: HighOnSmoke on May 07, 2015, 04:32:17 PM
I agree it is a great testimonial for the PBC. When I saw the title I went what??? But after reading it completely I agree with Smokeasaurus.
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: drholly on May 07, 2015, 04:56:14 PM
I agree it is a great testimonial for the PBC. When I saw the title I went what??? But after reading it completely I agree with Smokeasaurus.

X2!

I don't even have the porcelain coated version and feel it is a bargain!

Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: amshepar on May 07, 2015, 05:04:31 PM
From a retail pricing standpoint you are correct on everything but the rub for $8.  The bulk spice section at Whole Foods sells all of the ingredients in the PBC spice rub.  You can recreate the spice if you wanted to, at 5oz costing maybe $3.00 tops. 

Where this overall argument falls apart is that Noah pays a wholesale price for his parts.  His margins would have to be 50% minimum just to be able to pay employees, him and his wife (maybe), pay rent on his factory/warehouse, shipping, and his credit lines with suppliers who would advance him the barrel inventories at very marginal rates.  Any retail prodcut pitched on shark tank would vindicates point.

As a rule of thumb this argument doesn't work no matter what the product is.  It is simply impossible to recreate a product for less than a company can create it.  Yes there are luxury retail items  that have needless markup and the price is reflection more of image, marketing dollars spent, and name recognition (like a certain big green smoker/grill).

What would be interesting would be to build one of these yourself and test various alterations to the PBC.  Then you can see if there are ways to improve performance.  Testing the amount of charcoal, the vent opening at the bottom, where the rebar goes, different sizes.  Of course Noah has done all of this already.

In the end it is a genius product Noah has created.  I have had many night of enjoyment with my PBC and so have my friends and family.  I only wish I had thought of it!
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: LostArrow on May 07, 2015, 05:29:55 PM
A PBC is simply a vertical charcoal smoker/cooker built on a 30 gal. barrel frame.
I have an Akorn kamado, a 18 in. WSM, a charbroil double chef, a Worlds best Chicken cooker( another 30 gal. frame cooker & a mini WSM made from a weber smokey joe & a Tamale pot.
I've made 3 55 gallon UDS's in the past.  They are all varieties of the same cooker, a little size difference, ones insulated, some work better on high heat , but basically variations of the same theme.
Back to the PBC, unless cooking for an army a 30 gal. frame is more useful than a 55 gal. Frame for backyard cookers.
Used 55 gal. Barrels are easy to find & cheap!
30 gallon I can't find locally & are the major cost in a 30 gal. cooker :-\
When I looked at building a PBC clone ( no porcelain coating, but that's mainly an appearance issue)
It scared $200 .
If you decide to build a PBC clone you'll not save a lot of money. I don't count labor in a hobby project because that's part of the fun ::)
You can build a great cooker & have the satisfaction of building it yourself, just don't expect to save a lot of money
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: Tailgating is my game on May 07, 2015, 06:38:49 PM
Go Cardinals ;D
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: Bob c cue on May 07, 2015, 07:34:25 PM
From a retail pricing standpoint you are correct on everything but the rub for $8.  The bulk spice section at Whole Foods sells all of the ingredients in the PBC spice rub.  You can recreate the spice if you wanted to, at 5oz costing maybe $3.00 tops. 

Where this overall argument falls apart is that Noah pays a wholesale price for his parts.  His margins would have to be 50% minimum just to be able to pay employees, him and his wife (maybe), pay rent on his factory/warehouse, shipping, and his credit lines with suppliers who would advance him the barrel inventories at very marginal rates.  Any retail prodcut pitched on shark tank would vindicates point.

As a rule of thumb this argument doesn't work no matter what the product is.  It is simply impossible to recreate a product for less than a company can create it.  Yes there are luxury retail items  that have needless markup and the price is reflection more of image, marketing dollars spent, and name recognition (like a certain big green smoker/grill).

What would be interesting would be to build one of these yourself and test various alterations to the PBC.  Then you can see if there are ways to improve performance.  Testing the amount of charcoal, the vent opening at the bottom, where the rebar goes, different sizes.  Of course Noah has done all of this already.

In the end it is a genius product Noah has created.  I have had many night of enjoyment with my PBC and so have my friends and family.  I only wish I had thought of it!

Thanks for your thoughts on the rub. I think I will reduce the price bit.

I agree with your points above about economies of scale and that as a rule most people could not create a consumer product cheaper that someone who does that as a business. But the many folks who make the claim that they can build one cheaper do tend to grate on me (pun intended), so I wanted to put something together that would make them think twice before making the claim. Thanks again for your feedback. I do have to disagree with your last sentence. I wish I (Bob c cue) had thought of it!
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: smokeasaurus on May 07, 2015, 08:05:20 PM
The UDS seems to be the type of pit that everyone is trying to build on the cheap. Probably with mixed results if everyone comes clean and is honest about their efforts.

As a beloved forum sponsor, I am sure PBC welcomes this discussion. I stumbled upon a PBC owner that was willing to give out specs and dimensions to would be cloners on Facebook and I notified Amber right away....... just not ethical............

Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: muebe on May 07, 2015, 08:32:44 PM
One critical thing to note is even though the PBC is made out of a drum but it is not a smoker. It does not have a heat diffuser. The air flow out the top is specifically sized. The lid fits air tight. And the distance from the charcoal bed to the top is much shorter than a 55 gallon drum.

PBC comes fully assembled and easy to go right to your front door. Best bargain in town.

I like the information you have put together but I don't think it will change the mind of most people who already have their minds made up about the PBC.

Posting this might lead to frustration as more naysayers post a response.

And until they actually take the PBC challenge they will continue to doubt it's abilities.
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: Chief Mac on May 07, 2015, 10:08:24 PM
I totally agree with muebe. It reminds of  best of the best debates between people.   I think you took the right approach  Bob c cue. All you can do is educate your audience with the facts as you have them. Will they all believe -- NO, will you convert some -- Yes.  So for those that insist they can, Let Em Do It! Then they can tell you how and their show the receipts.  ::) ::) ::)
Chief Mac
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: TwoPockets on May 07, 2015, 10:18:56 PM
Well I don't have a PBC but I the the PIA factor of trying to build your own would be too high.
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: GusRobin on May 08, 2015, 02:03:56 AM
 As the others have said, you probably couldn't duplicate a PBC for what you could buy one. But if budget is an issue, a UDS can be a pretty good smoker.  I built my UDS for about $70.
$15 for the barrel, got a weber kettle clone for $5 from a clearance bin at a Dollar general so that gave me the top lid, and 2 of the grates, misc hardware for $19, material to make the charcoal basket $16, thermometer $5. Once I got the material it took about 4-5 hours to put it together.

Once I learned it, I have had it hold temps of 225 for 9 hours. I have made some great BBQ on it. Is it as good as a PBC? Definitely not as far as finish etc.

Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: LostArrow on May 08, 2015, 07:48:37 AM
Well I don't have a PBC but I the the PIA factor of trying to build your own would be too high.
Ahhh Twopockets sometimes the "Thrill of the Build " is the best part of a cooker for us old guys !
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: JGARCIA on May 08, 2015, 09:06:09 AM
I agree with you that it is annoying when people say they can build one for less, or that it is just a small uds.  Especially when they have never used one.  Although the anti PBC talk has gotten better over the past year.

Just like anything else in life it is all relative.  Why does anyone go out to a restaurant when they can cook the same thing at home.  Why go to a car wash when you can do it yourself, or get an oil change or pay someone to cut your grass.  Well sometimes it nice not to have to do it yourself, and if you can afford it who cares what you choose to do.

Not everyone has the time or talents to build something, so why not pay for one that is as good as it gets.

Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: TwoPockets on May 08, 2015, 09:41:35 AM
Well I don't have a PBC but I the the PIA factor of trying to build your own would be too high.
Ahhh Twopockets sometimes the "Thrill of the Build " is the best part of a cooker for us old guys !


Well John, at my advanced age is is all about "The Thrill Of The Beer" while I watch my food cook.
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: drholly on May 08, 2015, 09:50:54 AM
Well I don't have a PBC but I the the PIA factor of trying to build your own would be too high.
Ahhh Twopockets sometimes the "Thrill of the Build " is the best part of a cooker for us old guys !


Well John, at my advanced age is is all about "The Thrill Of The Beer" while I watch my food cook.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: amshepar on May 08, 2015, 10:27:11 AM
I have never built an UDS, in fact I have never owned anything but the PBC (minus a mini grill for tailgating but that doesn't count).  I would think that replicating the PBC on a 55 gallon barrel would provide the same results.  I would assume the vent at the bottom might need to be slightly bigger to create the right proportional air flow.

I think the charcoal basket would also need to be slightly bigger in order to maintain the same level heat in a barrel with almost double the volume (I don't believe this would mean double the charcoal amount, maybe 20-25% more).  I also think that you don't necessarily need 100% of the volume of the 55 gallon barrel. 

Instead of using the bottom of the barrel welding a separate  base maybe 12" or so from the bottom and placing the vent hole above that would provide better results.  You don't have to keep the entire 55 gallon barrel hot then. 

Ultimately, you are creating even more surface area if you do grate cooking, or even more space to hang meats.  The problem with this entire theory is that there are so many variables that can be tinkered with it's not worth trying to replicate, at least from my perspective.  I'll just stick to hanging my meat on the awesome PBC and not worrying about it until the thermostat tells me it is ready!
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: smokeasaurus on May 08, 2015, 12:06:44 PM
As the others have said, you probably couldn't duplicate a PBC for what you could buy one. But if budget is an issue, a UDS can be a pretty good smoker.  I built my UDS for about $70.
$15 for the barrel, got a weber kettle clone for $5 from a clearance bin at a Dollar general so that gave me the top lid, and 2 of the grates, misc hardware for $19, material to make the charcoal basket $16, thermometer $5. Once I got the material it took about 4-5 hours to put it together.

Once I learned it, I have had it hold temps of 225 for 9 hours. I have made some great BBQ on it. Is it as good as a PBC? Definitely not as far as finish etc.

There is no doubt that a 70.00 UDS can cook as good as a 10,000 smoker/trailer once the temps are mastered  8) 8)
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: GusRobin on May 08, 2015, 07:50:02 PM
As the others have said, you probably couldn't duplicate a PBC for what you could buy one. But if budget is an issue, a UDS can be a pretty good smoker.  I built my UDS for about $70.
$15 for the barrel, got a weber kettle clone for $5 from a clearance bin at a Dollar general so that gave me the top lid, and 2 of the grates, misc hardware for $19, material to make the charcoal basket $16, thermometer $5. Once I got the material it took about 4-5 hours to put it together.

Once I learned it, I have had it hold temps of 225 for 9 hours. I have made some great BBQ on it. Is it as good as a PBC? Definitely not as far as finish etc.

There is no doubt that a 70.00 UDS can cook as good as a 10,000 smoker/trailer once the temps are mastered  8) 8)

Don't get me wrong, if I had the money at the time I would probably have just bought a PBC if they were available at the time. But it was fun scavenging for the parts and putting it together.
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: DonR9 on May 09, 2015, 11:05:42 AM
Maybe you could build a PBC for 100 bucks, but could you build one of these??

http://bit.ly/1F5AdMa
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: spuds on May 09, 2015, 03:51:05 PM
If you arent a welding King,I think the PBC is a stellar bargain.Have had some tremendous cooks,only failures have been mine,like a thermometer that didnt work.Getting to where I can just eyeball it,thats pretty good for a schmuck.Excellent value IMO.
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: drholly on May 09, 2015, 03:53:17 PM
If you arent a welding King,I think the PBC is a stellar bargain.Have had some tremendous cooks,only failures have been mine,like a thermometer that didnt work.Getting to where I can just eyeball it,thats pretty good for a schmuck.Excellent value IMO.

Schmuck 2!

Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: LostArrow on May 09, 2015, 06:10:34 PM
I grew up when you repaired your flat tires, modified your own bikes, I remember putting a 4 barrel carburetor on my 1968 6 cylinder nova!
It's fun to build things!
To be honest the % of people who want to build cookers is small but to is its not about saving money it's about the gratification of building your own cooker !
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: Bob c cue on May 09, 2015, 06:37:55 PM
Thanks everyone for your comments. I did post basically the same thread  on BBQ Brethren and got lots of feedback. I think just about everyone agreed that you couldn not build the new porcelain coated PBC with a new 30 gallon drum for less than three bills but there were a few tense moments during the discussion.

Someone brought up the fact that you can buy the new PBC barrel and lid for $159 and then do the rest yourself. Got me to thinking what a great bargain that is as I did receive a quote to porcelain coat a 30 gallon drum for $150 from a reputable company in KC. And the guy told me there was potential for the drum to warp and that the adhesive on the bottom wood ooze out. Again anyway you look at it the PBC is a wonderful cooker at a reasonable price.
Title: Re: “Pit Barrel Cooker? Heck I could build one for less than $100!!!”
Post by: drholly on May 09, 2015, 06:42:13 PM
I grew up when you repaired your flat tires, modified your own bikes, I remember putting a 4 barrel carburetor on my 1968 6 cylinder nova!
It's fun to build things!
To be honest the % of people who want to build cookers is small but to is its not about saving money it's about the gratification of building your own cooker !

LA - I get it. When I was in Jr High I repaired my bike and all the bikes in the neighborhood. Led to me starting a bike shop in High school that paid for college. Loved working on my old Corvair, Austin Healy, and Mustang as well as my motorcycles. But as I got older, I have to confess... I like buying a well perfected grill. You are right - it's not always about saving money - sometimes it is just the fun of the chase... Thanks for reminding me.