Let's Talk BBQ
General => General Discussion & Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: bill sack on December 27, 2011, 06:49:20 PM
-
:) just looking for an educated opinion from the BBQ world........i will be going to a kcbs judging class in january so i'm going to ask these simple questions........what are your preferences in a competition? pork butt or pork shoulder, baby back ribs or st. louis ribs and finally chicken.......legs or thighs........ :-\
-
Bill we have a couple of KCBS judges here on the forum...Hopefully they will chime in and offer some advice
T
-
okay......i hope so.
-
Well first of all I am in no way qualified to answer, but I will. Pork butt or Boston butt is cut from the pork shoulder so it is sort of/kind of the same thing. The Boston butt contains the so called "money muscle" that most cooks prefer to turn into the judges. Don't know about competitions but for my money I want pork spare ribs trimmed St Louis style to eat instead of baby backs, although I like baby backs too. On chicken most all competion cooks will turn in some chicken thighs that are trimmed into a nice square presentation. The dark meat of the chicken has more flavor and does not dry out as bad. I attended a nice BBQ Boot Camp that taught you how to choose your meat, trim it, cook it and present it for judging in BBQ competitions and learned a good bit from that although I don't really plan on doing it.
-
I know Hub is a KCBS judge, and here in NC - with a lot of big cook off experience...might want to PM him, and I know we have at least one more here....and he is a West Coast guy. Might be good to compare the two's responses to your questions...?
-
As a KCBS Certified Judge, I can say without question that I will judge each meat category to the KCBS standard. You have to judge whatever the competitor submits, and to the KCBS standard. In my limited experience, I have seen primarily chicken thighs (with an occasional leg and breast), pork butts, spares, and the hardest thing to cook, and judge, IMO, the brisket.
Brisket is supposed to be the toughest meat to cook, and it is (literally and figuratively). Chicken is next. It is difficult to not overcook, too much. Based on my limited experience ( and inputs from a number of seasoned veterans) the chicken skin is one of the first things to make or beak an entry. To get "bite-through skin" and not overcook the chicken thigh is difficult. Having said that, I have had more good chicken than brisket. I had several pieces of chicken thigh at my last judging that were really good. On the other hand, I had a piece of brisket that didn't look too bad, but I could have used it as a tow strap on a truck! It wasa way undercooked!
Basically, as a Certified KCBS BBQ Judge, you must put your preferences aside and judge to their standard. This is difficult, at first. After my wife and I took the KCBS class, we have become much pickier eaters of BBQ when we go out. She even "critiques" my BBQ cooking with these standards. Some days I win, and others we won't alk about!
Keep an open mind and enjoy the class. You will meet some wonderful people out there judging BBQ.
Art
I consider Hub to be a good friend. Extremely knowledgable about cooking BBQ, and willing to share his expertise.
-
Geez...Art - WHY did I not remember that you are KCSB certified as well? They say that the the second thing to go is the memory....I just can't remember what the first thing is.... ;D
Here is a question - and one that may be worthy of a separate thread:
Are the priorities of KCBS judging concurrent with the consumer?
In other words: Consumers drive the market for BBQ. Consumers decide what is "good"or "not good" BBQ - based on patronage, or the lack thereof of a BBQ joint.
( I will admit to knowing what I am asking about ;) - but I believe there are many here that may not understand the process, and it's validity.)
So - is this a question worthy of it's own thread? ;D
T
-
Heck I would love to cook all three for Art just to get his opinion on INFRARED cooking ;)
-
KCBS rules don't typically allow the use of gas Jack. But I have seen some exceptions ( a comp in Knoxille that was KCBS sanctioned under the "Competitor Series"
And it's kind of a shame - because gas is not really easier to use than a pellet cooker, and pellet cookers are allowed IIRC......
But, those are some GREAT look chicken chunks!
T
-
thanks guys for the input.......in the last year i have won firsts in pork , chicken, and ribs,but i'd love to take a shotgun to a brisket.......i have walked in contests that i knew i had no chance of doing so, so i'm very puzzled sometimes as to just what judges are looking for.i just hope that going to a judging class will help.
-
I thought I heard somewhere that regional tastes need to be considered. Is there any truth to that?
-
My wife and I took the KCBS judging class together in 2009. Before we judged our first competition, I insisted on taking a KCBS sponsored BBQ cooking class. We were fortunate enough to be able to take the class from Rod Gray outside Nashville, TN in 2010. Rod was the reigning KCBS 2009 Grand Champion. We learned so much from this class. We actually got to experience all four meat categories being prepared, cooked, and then turned in from both stick burners and pellet grills. I had a true appreciation of what the competitor goes through to enter and cook for a contest. I believe that every judge should take a KCBS BBQ cooking class. I feel that I am a better judge becasue of the experience.
Art
PS. Because of this exposure to competition cooking, I ended up buiying a pellet grill.
-
Sorry to chime in so late -- had a lot to take care of and haven't popped into the forum for several days. Some comments:
1. Personal taste has absolutely nothing to do with good judging. We judge to broad standards and do not judge one entry against another -- each is measured on its own.
2. KCBS standards are not "concurrent with the consumer" as you've phrased it. Competition BBQ is an art/science unto itself. However, most untrained, unsophisticated palates will really like it. In commercial BBQ cook time and expense is a major factor. In competition it isn't, usually. Thus, competition barbeque is often much higher in quality. As Art mentioned, learning to judge will jaundice you a bit. I think there is good commercial barbeque but that great commercial barbeque is rare.
3. All food in a KCBS competition must be cooked using wood (sticks, charcoal, pellets, combinations of same) and gas is not allowed as is electric heat. I think including pellet cookers under "electric" here is incorrect because the heat comes only from wood. Electricity is used for ignition and a slight convection effect.
4. Regional tastes do come into play but are not highly significant. KCBS standards are broad enough to allow for some things like vinegary sauces to compete with sweet, etc., but the best cooks know how to play to their audience (judges) and the best judges don't judge to regional taste. I judged both the Invitational and the Open of the American Royal this year (teams from all over the country and some international). What landed at my table showed no regional difference from what I typically get in judging in the southeast U.S..
Please enjoy your judging class and take it very seriously. We really need lots more good judges. Have fun, too. You're in for a treat.
Finally, PM me, Art, or any other judge for help and input at any time. I've written many articles on judging, many published in the KCBS Bullsheet and some on other forums. You'll find these articles helpful when you're confronted with a question about an attribute (taste, appearance, tenderness) or completing a comment card appropriately.
Hub
-
I just noticed I said something in my prior that needs explanation: The articles I refer to are owned by their publishers, not me and I can't re-publish or post them here. This site, most others, and the site I moderate have policies prohibiting placing links to other sites and I fully support that. It is not the spirit or intent of any good site to "pirate" readership or recruit members from another, or self-promote. It is okay to PM a link to an individual, however, if the spirt is to assist.
Hub
-
We are pretty different from most sites Hub ;)- and if the link is to the Bullsheet, ABBQA, MBN or any other BBQ judging body - I have no problem with links.
If it is a post from anothe BBQ forum, and you are the author - or obtain the permission of the author - and wish to re- post it in it's entireity here please do so!
Thanks!
T
-
thank you HUB for your thoughts i appreciate it........i'm looking for that first grand and to learn just what judges are looking for ..... i'll take this class very serious as well as my cooking.
-
Morning Bill,
As a long time judge, most would tell you that it doesn't make any difference in your pork selection as long as it is cooked well. In the real world, most are cooking just plain pork butts.
The St. Louis cut spare ribs are the most popular turn in at the present time in the rib category with loin backs the second choice. A judge rarely sees real baby back ribs that weigh 1-3/4 down as all of these go to restaurants. Most loin backs will weigh about 2.25 to 2.50 down to about 3.00 pounds per whole 13 bone slab.
Chicken thighs are winning most contests with legs showing up once in a while. You also see some white meat as well.
Taking the judging class will help you with your contest cooking but probably not like you think. You will learn HOW to judge a contest.....not how to cook for a contest. They will teach you what is legal how to judge each class of meat. As far as the meat presented at the class, it's only as good as the cook selected to cook it for the class. He could be a great cook or maybe a lousy cook.
Now, here is where you WILL learn....as a KCBS judge, you are now allowed to judge contests and you want to do some as soon as possible. You will see what your competition is turning in. How the meat is presented in the box and just what cuts they are using. How spicy or sweet the meat tastes and how tender is it as compared to yours etc. My friend, it's all there in front of you!! I think you will find that a lot of the turn in taste and look about the same as most good cooks are taking classes on competition cooking.
Congrats in walking in three of the meats this year. I can tell you what is winning in brisket at most contests.
Most cooks are cooking full packer cuts and presenting both slices and burnt ends in the box. Remember, you must nail both of these cuts as each judge will judge both cuts if that is what is presented. If you screw up the burnt ends, don't put them in the box. It's twice as tough when you need to get two cuts of meat right!
The winning cooks, (your competition) are probably cooking the Kobe Wagyu briskets. These are expensive at about $10.00-11.00 a pound shipped to your home. I like the larger ones at about 14 pounds and each one costs me about $150.00 from Snake River Farms. I usually cook one of these and one good CAB brisket for each contest.
You mentioned you wanted to learn just what the judges are looking for....so do all of the other competition cooks. When you get it figured out, please write a book or give a class as I have been trying to figure it out for years!
Have fun at the judging class...
-
thanks hub for the reply,its as i suspected that all cooks are doing mostly the same things.just looking to improve what i am doing. i see alot of teams winning alot and figure they got it right in what there are doing........probably not alot of secrets out there.......
-
thanks hub for the reply,its as i suspected that all cooks are doing mostly the same things.just looking to improve what i am doing. i see alot of teams winning alot and figure they got it right in what there are doing........probably not alot of secrets out there.......
Winning teams are characterized by consistency and broad food appeal. Au Contraire . . . there are many, many secrets out there and the pros don't swap all information :-X
Hub
-
I had a guy tell me once that if he saw a "Good" team turning in at a certain table he would try to turn in at a different table.
-
hey smoke, i heard that also....and then i have heard try to turn boxes in asap so judges dont get used to certain tastes on their palate......not so sure about that one........in any case i'm going to cook competitions and continue to get those walks.....
-
In KCBS the boxes are turned in at a table away from the judges. They mark each with the competitor's number and make sure that each competitor's entry goes to a different judging table each time. You don't get to pick your table to turn in. Only one of your entries will be judged by a group of judges. It is "blind judging" by design.
Art
-
I had a guy tell me once that if he saw a "Good" team turning in at a certain table he would try to turn in at a different table.
One of the games some of the pro teams play at the turn in table is waiting and watching. If they see a tough competitor turn in, they may hold back and try to avoid winding up in the same juding tray. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't depending on the size of the contest and how fast and furious the turn-ins are coming. I worked turn in at the Cumming, GA contest in November and there was lots of this "wait and pounce" going on. It's just one of the fun things about contests.
Hub
-
hmmm, just saw the words "Pro team" what makes them a Pro ? i cook in a contest that is not kcbs sponsored and win big , go to a KCBS contest and do fairly well , at least i'm happy with it for now since i've only just started in 2010....so what is a PRO.?
-
"Pro" doesn't mean a full-time-do-nothing-but-contest-team. "Pro" is used to separate the divisions. Some contests have a "backyard" division for new or less serious cooks. It doesn't include brisket and typically has a smaller entry fee and prizes. I've judged backyard several times and it is usually pretty good food, even some that could compete "pro".
Hub
-
No reason why "Championship" quality grub can't be cooked in your own back-yard.
Heck, your pit doesn't know where it's at and sometimes the toughest "judges" is your own family...they can be down-right brutal when they don't like something :o
-
your right about the critics at home for sure, thats why i like the comment cards at cook-offs. how else are you going to know what your doing unless somebody tells you......good point.....
-
You can all send samples to my house - and I will tell you you did good! ;D