Author Topic: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!  (Read 8711 times)

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Offline TentHunteR

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2015, 11:28:49 PM »
OK, I'm going to chime in with this at the risk of upsetting someone, BUT this is important!

First, I absolutely stand behind what I posted above.  I would rinse it off and start over using the correct amount of Cure #1! That recipe uses twice the amount of cure #1 than the USDA recommends!

The recipe often attributed to Chris (Tenpoint5) is NOT his recipe (Chris himself has mentioned this before), and it too uses approximately twice the amount the amount of cure #1 as prescribed by the USDA - according to the USDA Processing Inspector's Calculations Handbook.

The salt and sugar in that recipe are fine, The ONLY thing I would adjust is the amount of cure #1 to stay within USDA limits.  I have double checked the calculations and 1 teaspoons per 5 lb of meat will keep you within the 200 ppm of ingoing nitrite limit, irregardless of how much brine it produces in the bag.

The key point is that the briny liquid produced IS part of the green weight of the meat and is therefore part of that calculation!


Remember (like Tee mentioned above about the osmotic process), the salt & sugar AND nitrite ALL get carried into the meat. The salt and sugar continue to move in and out until equilibrium is reached. The same is NOT true for the nitrite. As it bonds with the iron molecule in the myoglobin, it gets locked in, so to speak, and can therefore exceed safe limits.

Think about this: even if the liquid produced does contains some nitrite, the amount of liquid compared to the meat is miniscule. The majority of the nitrite is uptaken into the meat.



Again, if you look at the link I posted above for the Bacon Calculator, you will see it too backs up what I'm saying here.




Now on to the question that Smokerjunky asked:

Quote
When you say to slice a piece out of the middle and fry it up - how is that going to tell me if it is correct?  I am not sure I will know what I am tasting for since there won't be any smoke on it.

You are testing for

1) Salt/sugar level (is it to your liking),

and MOST IMPORTANTLY...

2) Did you get a thorough cure?  When you slowly fry a piece up, does the pink color remain throughout the entire thickness, indicating a thorough cure, OR... does the center turn gray when you cook it indicating more cure time is needed.





I sure hope this makes sense, and no-one is offended, as that is not my intent.  We need to be sure we are following USDA guidelines on this.

Cliff
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 11:43:22 PM by TentHunteR »
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Offline Sailor1

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2015, 08:12:17 AM »
Cliff makes a valid argument and after thinking about it I agree with what he says.  I can say that Cliff does know his stuff about blood chemistry.  I completely overlooked the fact that the moisture IS part of the green weight.  What I find interesting is that the recipe for Maple Cured Bacon has been posted for years and no one has ever caught the cure level and challenged it.  I know many people have used that recipe and pounds and pounds of that bacon have been made that have been over cured.  I just changed that recipe in my file to show the correct amount of cure. 

I for one am happy that this thread was made and for the discussions that it generated.  Cliff, I thank you for your input and your expertise in curing.  I have learned something today and that is a good thing.  BTW if I was the person that you were afraid of offending rest assured that I was not offended.


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Offline KyNola

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2015, 10:28:59 AM »
I don't want to offend anyone either but I too have cured hundreds of pounds of bacon and have always used 2 tsps of pink salt in a dry rub curing method per 5 lbs of pork belly .  I also use the 7 day curing period.

Pink salt can indeed be a dangerous additive if an excessive amount is used but remember the USDA is the same group that forces the labeling of any cured meat that is cured with celery juice or powder which contains nitrites as an "uncured product" because they can't decide how much celery juice or powder is safe.

To each his own.


Offline Smokerjunky

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2015, 11:27:29 AM »
OK, I'm going to chime in with this at the risk of upsetting someone, BUT this is important!

First, I absolutely stand behind what I posted above.  I would rinse it off and start over using the correct amount of Cure #1! That recipe uses twice the amount of cure #1 than the USDA recommends!

The recipe often attributed to Chris (Tenpoint5) is NOT his recipe (Chris himself has mentioned this before), and it too uses approximately twice the amount the amount of cure #1 as prescribed by the USDA - according to the USDA Processing Inspector's Calculations Handbook.

The salt and sugar in that recipe are fine, The ONLY thing I would adjust is the amount of cure #1 to stay within USDA limits.  I have double checked the calculations and 1 teaspoons per 5 lb of meat will keep you within the 200 ppm of ingoing nitrite limit, irregardless of how much brine it produces in the bag.

The key point is that the briny liquid produced IS part of the green weight of the meat and is therefore part of that calculation!


Remember (like Tee mentioned above about the osmotic process), the salt & sugar AND nitrite ALL get carried into the meat. The salt and sugar continue to move in and out until equilibrium is reached. The same is NOT true for the nitrite. As it bonds with the iron molecule in the myoglobin, it gets locked in, so to speak, and can therefore exceed safe limits.

Think about this: even if the liquid produced does contains some nitrite, the amount of liquid compared to the meat is miniscule. The majority of the nitrite is uptaken into the meat.



Again, if you look at the link I posted above for the Bacon Calculator, you will see it too backs up what I'm saying here.




Now on to the question that Smokerjunky asked:

Quote
When you say to slice a piece out of the middle and fry it up - how is that going to tell me if it is correct?  I am not sure I will know what I am tasting for since there won't be any smoke on it.

You are testing for

1) Salt/sugar level (is it to your liking),

and MOST IMPORTANTLY...

2) Did you get a thorough cure?  When you slowly fry a piece up, does the pink color remain throughout the entire thickness, indicating a thorough cure, OR... does the center turn gray when you cook it indicating more cure time is needed.





I sure hope this makes sense, and no-one is offended, as that is not my intent.  We need to be sure we are following USDA guidelines on this.

Cliff

First let me say that none of this is offensive to me - my perceived intent/process of the site seems to be working as intended  :)

Cliff my question now changes a bit - by tonight I will be three full days into the curing process.  Is it still safe at this point to rinse the belly with cold water and remix all ingredients cutting the pink salt in half and continuing the process?  I would imagine that the curing that has already occured over the three days will remain in the meat (ie -pink salt) and that I would remain on the path to 7 full days of curing - so four days left even if I rinse and re-mix/re-bag.  I will lose the brine that has currently been produced by the three days of curing if I rinse and re-bag in new bags.

Thanks for the clarification on what to look for if I cut it open after 7 days and fry a piece (looking for grey coloring).

This is all helpful information - I had no idea when I posted this it would create such a 'spirited' discussion.

Thanks again EVERYONE for the conversation and posts!!!
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Offline KyNola

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2015, 11:58:55 AM »
I will certainly yield to Cliff's opinion but my opinion is if you are already 3 full days into the curing process, the vast amount of the curing salt is already in the meat and can't be rinsed off.  Starting over would add even more curing salt to the belly.

Your bacon is safe to eat "as is".  If the amount of curing salt you used concerns you then use Cliff's amount the next time you make your bacon.

Like I said, I'll yield to Cliff.

Offline Sailor1

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2015, 01:43:08 PM »
I will certainly yield to Cliff's opinion but my opinion is if you are already 3 full days into the curing process, the vast amount of the curing salt is already in the meat and can't be rinsed off.  Starting over would add even more curing salt to the belly.

Your bacon is safe to eat "as is".  If the amount of curing salt you used concerns you then use Cliff's amount the next time you make your bacon.

Like I said, I'll yield to Cliff.
Yep, I agree.  All the Bacon that I have made has had the 2 tsp per 5 pounds and I'm still kicking.  My insides may be cured but I am still alive  ;D


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Offline Tenpoint5

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2015, 03:01:01 PM »
Since I have been drug into this. I feel the nessesity to reply. No the bacon recipe I use and am named for was not created by me. Yes there has been several discussions about the amount of cure in the recipe.

This is not a completely dry dry curing process. The addition of the maple syrup is why there is extra cure in the mix. The extra cure is there to account for the cure that will remain suspended in the syrup and NEVER come in contact with the meat.

That's it that's the reason. It's already been debated. So I won't do it again. Friendships have been tested over it, a few even lost. The recipe has been used to make more bacon than I care to try and count, with no ill effects.
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Offline TMB

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2015, 03:05:44 PM »
Since I have been drug into this. I feel the nessesity to reply. No the bacon recipe I use and am named for was not created by me. Yes there has been several discussions about the amount of cure in the recipe.

This is not a completely dry dry curing process. The addition of the maple syrup is why there is extra cure in the mix. The extra cure is there to account for the cure that will remain suspended in the syrup and NEVER come in contact with the meat.

That's it that's the reason. It's already been debated. So I won't do it again. Friendships have been tested over it, a few even lost. The recipe has been used to make more bacon than I care to try and count, with no ill effects.
Glad to see your still around,  and very well stated I might say :) :) :)
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Offline TentHunteR

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2015, 10:03:14 PM »
The addition of the maple syrup is why there is extra cure in the mix. The extra cure is there to account for the cure that will remain suspended in the syrup and NEVER come in contact with the meat.

I have seen the original poster of that recipe make that argument.  Please allow me to explain why I don't buy into it.

There are two basic principles of chemistry at work here:  1) Osmosis/Diffusion,  and  2) Solutions versus Suspensions.


1) Osmosis/Diffusion: is when solvent particles can move through semi-permeable membranes to an area of higher/lower concentration (respectively). 

2) Solutions versus suspensions:

● Anything water soluble, when mixed with water, forms a solution.

Example: Salt and sugar dissolve in water and become evenly distributed throughout the solution which now acts as a single unit.


● Anything NON-Water soluble, when mixed in water, forms a suspension.

Example: A ground spice added to a brine -  The spice, itself, does not dissolve and therefore remains suspended until it either settles or floats to the surface.   


3) Maple syrup and sodium nitrite are both water soluble and dissolve (along with the salt) as liquid is pulled from the meat to form a brine solution.

This means that sodium nitrite CANNOT simply remain suspended in the syrup (or never come into contact with the meat). The salt, sugar/syrup & nitrite become evenly distributed throughout the brine solution which moves as a single unit freely in and out the meat's cellular structure by means of osmosis/diffusion. 


This begs the question: Does some of the nitrite remain outside the meat in the brine? Yes, of course it does!

THEREFORE it becomes a matter of the concentration of nitrite present in the brine that's formed in relation to the meat. Since we are not adding additional water or injecting, we are relying solely on the green weight of the meat and assuming equilibrium for our calculations.

As long as proper concentrations of nitrite are used, the majority of what's picked up by the meat bonds to the iron molecules in the myoglobin and oxidizes (that's why the meat stays pink).  If the concentrations are too high, then extra un-oxidized nitrite remains in the meat once equilibrium has been reached. It's this extra nitrite that becomes the concern. 


Again, I reference the Bacon calculator link I posted above. Please check it out for yourselves, and be sure to select the U.S. standards





Does this mean you're going to poison yourself if you use 2 teaspoons of Cure #1 per 5 lbs of meat?  Probably not,  BUT why use extra when it's not needed? It's better IMHO to use what the USDA recommends and stay safe!

That's my 2¢ worth and I'm sticking to it! ;)




Now on to Smokerjunky's question:

Quote from: Smokerjunky
Cliff my question now changes a bit - by tonight I will be three full days into the curing process.  Is it still safe at this point to rinse the belly with cold water and remix all ingredients cutting the pink salt in half and continuing the process?  I would imagine that the curing that has already occured over the three days will remain in the meat (ie -pink salt) and that I would remain on the path to 7 full days of curing - so four days left even if I rinse and re-mix/re-bag.  I will lose the brine that has currently been produced by the three days of curing if I rinse and re-bag in new bags.


I tend to agree with Larry (KYNOLA) much of it has probably already worked it's way into the meat.  Like Chris (TenPoint5) mentioned this is NOT a dry cure. This is a dry-rub cure which then creates its own brine, so it's a wet cure process.

At this point I think I'd wait until tomorrow then simply pour off the brine, which will prevent any further intake of Nitrite and allow what's in the bacon to equalize during the remainder of a 7-day curing process.  You may want to re-apply more Maple syrup when you do this.





Again my point is NOT to argue or offend anyone.  You guys are my brothers and sisters on the Web. I just like to understand this stuff and want us all to be as safe as possible!

Cliff
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Offline Smokerjunky

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2015, 11:04:25 AM »
The addition of the maple syrup is why there is extra cure in the mix. The extra cure is there to account for the cure that will remain suspended in the syrup and NEVER come in contact with the meat.

I have seen the original poster of that recipe make that argument.  Please allow me to explain why I don't buy into it.

There are two basic principles of chemistry at work here:  1) Osmosis/Diffusion,  and  2) Solutions versus Suspensions.


1) Osmosis/Diffusion: is when solvent particles can move through semi-permeable membranes to an area of higher/lower concentration (respectively). 

2) Solutions versus suspensions:

● Anything water soluble, when mixed with water, forms a solution.

Example: Salt and sugar dissolve in water and become evenly distributed throughout the solution which now acts as a single unit.


● Anything NON-Water soluble, when mixed in water, forms a suspension.

Example: A ground spice added to a brine -  The spice, itself, does not dissolve and therefore remains suspended until it either settles or floats to the surface.   


3) Maple syrup and sodium nitrite are both water soluble and dissolve (along with the salt) as liquid is pulled from the meat to form a brine solution.

This means that sodium nitrite CANNOT simply remain suspended in the syrup (or never come into contact with the meat). The salt, sugar/syrup & nitrite become evenly distributed throughout the brine solution which moves as a single unit freely in and out the meat's cellular structure by means of osmosis/diffusion. 


This begs the question: Does some of the nitrite remain outside the meat in the brine? Yes, of course it does!

THEREFORE it becomes a matter of the concentration of nitrite present in the brine that's formed in relation to the meat. Since we are not adding additional water or injecting, we are relying solely on the green weight of the meat and assuming equilibrium for our calculations.

As long as proper concentrations of nitrite are used, the majority of what's picked up by the meat bonds to the iron molecules in the myoglobin and oxidizes (that's why the meat stays pink).  If the concentrations are too high, then extra un-oxidized nitrite remains in the meat once equilibrium has been reached. It's this extra nitrite that becomes the concern. 


Again, I reference the Bacon calculator link I posted above. Please check it out for yourselves, and be sure to select the U.S. standards





Does this mean you're going to poison yourself if you use 2 teaspoons of Cure #1 per 5 lbs of meat?  Probably not,  BUT why use extra when it's not needed? It's better IMHO to use what the USDA recommends and stay safe!

That's my 2¢ worth and I'm sticking to it! ;)




Now on to Smokerjunky's question:

Quote from: Smokerjunky
Cliff my question now changes a bit - by tonight I will be three full days into the curing process.  Is it still safe at this point to rinse the belly with cold water and remix all ingredients cutting the pink salt in half and continuing the process?  I would imagine that the curing that has already occured over the three days will remain in the meat (ie -pink salt) and that I would remain on the path to 7 full days of curing - so four days left even if I rinse and re-mix/re-bag.  I will lose the brine that has currently been produced by the three days of curing if I rinse and re-bag in new bags.


I tend to agree with Larry (KYNOLA) much of it has probably already worked it's way into the meat.  Like Chris (TenPoint5) mentioned this is NOT a dry cure. This is a dry-rub cure which then creates its own brine, so it's a wet cure process.

At this point I think I'd wait until tomorrow then simply pour off the brine, which will prevent any further intake of Nitrite and allow what's in the bacon to equalize during the remainder of a 7-day curing process.  You may want to re-apply more Maple syrup when you do this.





Again my point is NOT to argue or offend anyone.  You guys are my brothers and sisters on the Web. I just like to understand this stuff and want us all to be as safe as possible!

Cliff

Thanks again Cliff - to clarify I did not use any maple syrup in my mix.  The exact recipe I used is as follows:
1/3 C Kosher Salt
1/3 C Granulated Sugar
2 tsp Pink Curing Salt

That was for 5 lbs.  The belly I am curing was 10.37 lbs so I doubled the recipe.  The recipe I had did not call for Maple syrup (which I would probably not have used anway becuase I did not want any addtional sweetness to the bacon)

Is it your thought that I should drain off the liquid tonight (full four days into the cure) without rinsing and return it to the ziploc bags to finish the last three days of the cure before smoking?

Thanks
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Offline TentHunteR

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2015, 03:58:30 PM »

Is it your thought that I should drain off the liquid tonight (full four days into the cure) without rinsing and return it to the ziploc bags to finish the last three days of the cure before smoking?

Thanks

Yes, that's what I'd do. That way you prevent any further uptake of nitrite, and by now there should be plenty of salt/sugar/nitrite in it that it should level out nicely.

Again, fry up a test slice to check for saltiness etc, before you smoke it to see if it needs a soak. My guess is it won't need much of a soak, if any at all, since you're removing it after four days. A test slice will tell you for sure.

Most of all be sure to get some pics to share with us!  We're all a bunch of smoker junkies here!  :D
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Offline TwoPockets

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2015, 11:11:18 PM »
Dang, I will just buy my bacon at the store. It may not be as much fun as making my own, but it tastes good.
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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2015, 11:26:40 PM »
Dang, I will just buy my bacon at the store. It may not be as much fun as making my own, but it tastes good.

Store bought bacon does not hold a candle to what you can make a home. And, I thought that was hyperbole, until I did it myself. Now, I think of store bought bacon just like I think of pre-packaged pulled pork from the grocery store. Compared to the real deal....it pales in comparison.

And, it need not be difficult, or dangerous, or stressful.  ;D But you will have fun making your own!
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Offline TentHunteR

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2015, 08:56:22 AM »
Store bought bacon does not hold a candle to what you can make a home. And, I thought that was hyperbole, until I did it myself. Now, I think of store bought bacon just like I think of pre-packaged pulled pork from the grocery store. Compared to the real deal....it pales in comparison.

And, it need not be difficult, or dangerous, or stressful.  ;D But you will have fun making your own!

I agree 100%!  :)

Bacon making really isn't complicated, and once you try it you are hooked!


Now... I am OUT of bacon again  :'(,  so I need to go make some!



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Offline Smokerjunky

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Re: Makin' Bacon - First Attempt - Here we go!
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2015, 04:00:24 PM »
OK the process is complete - here is the result and update:  based on great feedback from everyone (thank you - I really appreciate it!!) I removed the belly from the curing brine bags at the end of day 5 and let it cure for two more days with the liquid drained off.

At the end of day 7 I rinsed the bellies with cold water, patted dry, and returned to refrigerator on racks/cookie sheets for another 12 hours for the pellicle to form.

Monday night I put them on the pellet smoker at 175 degrees - it took about 4 hours for the IT to come up to 150.  I let them cool to room temp (about 3 hours) and then vacuum sealed them and returned to the refrigerator for another 12 hours.

Last night I sliced them up as good as I could without a meat slicer (crazy sharp knife while they were cold from refrigeration worked OK but if I do more I would prefer to invest in a meat slicer - would also be good for my jerky  ;))

The result = Great flavor but just a bit more salty than I would prefer.  Next batch will get soaked in cold water for an hour or two before smoking to remove some of that excess salt.  Overall I am really pleased with the results - the flavor is incredible - I will definately be doing more bacon!

I cooked a couple pieces last night (OK I had three LOL) and vacuum sealed the rest and put them in the freezer.

Thanks again EVERYONE for the feedback and assistance through the process - much appreciated.

Out of the smoke


Sliced


Packaged to freeze


Cooked and ready to enjoy
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