Let's Talk BBQ
FORUM SPONSORS => Pit Barrel Cooker Co. => Topic started by: Bart57266 on August 27, 2015, 10:17:08 PM
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Well, I'm about 24 hours away from putting my PBC on Craigslist and moving on, because I just can't get the PBC to produce the flavor we (my family) all expect. Here's the problem:
When I grill chicken in a Weber kettle grill over Kingsford briquettes, we love it. It has a distinctive grilled flavor.
When I smoke chicken in a traditional bullet smoker with Kingsford briquettes and a handful of wood chips, plus a water pan between the coals and meat, we love it, as well. It has an awesome smoked flavor.
When I hang chicken in the PBC over Kingsford briquettes, however, with or without wood chips added, everyone at the table is a little disgusted by the grease smoke flavor. It's like I've ruined dinner, and I partially agree.
I've cooked chicken low and slow in the PBC (4hrs), hot and fast (2hrs 10 min) by cracking the lid periodically to heat up the coals, plus cooked some various times between those. Every single cook, whether it's two chickens cut in half, or 8 leg quarters like I did tonight, the high volume of dripping juices creates rolling grease fog pretty much constantly throughout the entire cook. And the sound... It's like I'm grilling burgers; Lots of dripping and sizzling going on.
As you can tell, I'm extremely frustrated with this. Either I'm doing something wrong, and it's creating all of this grease fog flavor, or that's just the way the PBC is. So here's what I need to know: Do you all get a different flavor from PBC-cooked meats than you get from smokers, or do you pretty much get what most people consider to be traditional smoked BBQ flavor?
I really need to know if I'm doing something wrong, or if this is just the way the PBC cooks. If the latter is the case, I probably need to stop fighting it, sell out and move on.
Your input will be sincerely appreciated.
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Why don't you call the PBC folks. I hear they have excellent customer service.
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They do, and I've talked with them about troubleshooting temps, length of charcoal burn, etc. I just wondered what all of you get from your PBCs, compared to traditional smokers.
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"As you can tell, I'm extremely frustrated with this. Either I'm doing something wrong, and it's creating all of this grease fog flavor, or that's just the way the PBC is. So here's what I need to know: Do you all get a different flavor from PBC-cooked meats than you get from smokers, or do you pretty much get what most people consider to be traditional smoked BBQ flavor?"
I have a Weber Kettle, - and, frankly...I can't tell the difference in flavor profile. Both use the same charcoal...It is different from chicken cooked in a pellet grill or gas grill. A distinctive charcoal asked flavor that we love.
Perhaps - if you tried hanging the chicken off center form where you have your charcoal - so that the charcoal is not directly under the chicken? As well - I trim all of the fat that typically is attached at the base of the breast/chest cavity - and I cut off the tail ( which is all fat).
Have you told us how you are prepping your chicken? Are you adding any oil/butter to the chicken before you hang it - or during the cook? Do you baste the chicken during the cook?
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No difference in flavor profile? Wow. I'm getting totally different flavor.
I'm not trimming fat, which could make a big difference. All I do is rinse it, dry it, sprinkle on some rub, and hang. No oil or butter is added, no marinading beforehand.
Hanging it off-center may work, but the juices still end up down by the coals. Won't they vaporize anyway?
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Could it be creosote from the chicken fat dripping on the coals and flaming up? Just a thought, but I've never used a PBC so no real experience here. That "grease fog" flavor usually is from non-thin blue smoke which often has creosote and other undesirable flavor compounds in it.
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That's exactly what it's from, because the only difference between a PBC and a bullet smoker (besides venting and internal shape) is that bullet smokers have water pans. That's where all of the juices go, rather than onto the coals to vaporize and create smoke.
Don't get me wrong, everybody; I'm not knocking the PBC. I just need to know if the flavor I'm getting is what I'm supposed to be getting. If it is, then maybe the PBC isn't for me. If it isn't, then I'm doing something wrong.
Either way, something has to change.
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IMHO your not cooking the chicken hot enough. 2 hours and 10 minutes sounds too long to me.
The PBC should be cooking chicken hot and fast. I usually finish chicken in mine in like 1 to 1 1/2 hours.
Try getting a hotter fire started.
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I agree that your fire must not be hot enough. It seldom takes me longer than 75 min. (that's an hour and 15 minutes, Dee) when I'm grillin'...it seems to take 2 1/2 hours when smokin' at 250*.
I have been using the BBQ Dragon -- http://www.bbqdragon.com -- too get my charcoal going. It works!!! I use it when starting the fire in my offset smoker as well as firing up a chimney full of coals.
Gotta get the fire hot...
just sayin'...
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I thought I was right on track with my fastest cook of 2hrs 10min, because the PBC video states a cook time of 2hrs.
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I used a UDS type smoker for years and the flavor profile is the same as the "Grease Fog" that you have in the PBC. I can definitely pick up on that flavor. It is different from other smokers. Most people love it. I know of some (family members) that don't.
This smoker might simply be not for you.......It will be gobbled up quickly when it hits Craigslist :)
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And if that's the case (that it isn't for me), at least I'll know it wasn't because of some unknown mistake I was making. I still don't fault the Pit Barrel. It's a great product and I really wanted it to be my only "smoker" so our rusting bullet and offset models could be eliminated.
Still open to suggestions...
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IMHO your not cooking the chicken hot enough. 2 hours and 10 minutes sounds too long to me.
The PBC should be cooking chicken hot and fast. I usually finish chicken in mine in like 1 to 1 1/2 hours.
Try getting a hotter fire started.
I think Muebe hit the nail on the head. Muebe is very, very good at trouble shooting issues.
I'd try his suggestion first before selling your PBC
I have picked his brain a few time (what he has left ;) ) and he nails it for me 99%.
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There is a certain flavor when drippings and seasonings drop and hit the coals below vs drippings and seasonings hitting a water pan (WSM) below. I know of some members on other forums getting rid of their drums..family rebellion so to speak....... Just sayin.......
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You're right, Smoke. It's a totally different cooking process, regardless of how similar they may appear.
PBC chicken is even vastly different than grilled chicken in a Weber kettle (in my experience). They're the same chicken, over the same charcoal, cooked with lids in place and thick grease smoke rolling out, etc. It must be due to the different distances from the coals. PBC and drum chicken, hung up high toward the lid, is more "in the fog" than grilled chicken, and therefore picks up more of the fog's flavor.
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You're right, Smoke. It's a totally different cooking process, regardless of how similar they may appear.
PBC chicken is even vastly different than grilled chicken in a Weber kettle (in my experience). They're the same chicken, over the same charcoal, cooked with lids in place and thick grease smoke rolling out, etc. It must be due to the different distances from the coals. PBC and drum chicken, hung up high toward the lid, is more "in the fog" than grilled chicken, and therefore picks up more of the fog's flavor.
Exactly, Rocky Richmond from North Carolina (he kinda pioneered the expensive Mfg built UDS drums) called it an old time "Grand-pappy" flavor. Some folk just don't care for it. I can't get enough of it but I aint called Smokeasurus for nothing. Heck, I don't care for food off of WSM's....go figure.... ???
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I think 1.5 hours should be closer to the right cook time too. This could vary a bit, but not a full extra hour. I recently switched to Royal Oak briquettes from Kingsford (the suggested brand of PBC) in the PBC. It makes the charcoal flavor a little more subtle than the Kingsford does. It seems to cook food in the same amount of time for me and the start times are the same. Also, I use a pretty large amount of lighter fluid. It is a ton of charcoal in there.
I use a full basket of charcoal, I use the lighter fluid method, and I let it go for 20 minutes before placing the meat. I have this part down to a science and don't alter it in any way. Also, I only open the lid once. That's to flip meat on the grate halfway through. This step is not necessary as it will cook evenly without flipping, but the very subtle grill marks created help with the presentation to others (I do have an exception when making wings, where I will baste and cook on an open flame the last 5-10 minutes).
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I do love smoke flavor from real wood, but that isn't the same as the smoke/fog from dripping juices.
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My off-set has a entire different flavor to it than the PBC 8)
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I have smoked on lots of smokers over the years and thought I could turn out some pretty good bbq. Honestly since I have had my PBC folks are raving about what comes off of it. Now if it is you that doesn't like the food that comes off it might be it's just not for you. If ALL the people eating it says they don't like it.....you are definitely doing something wrong. Now this is just my opinion and my wife says my opinion don't mean crap most of the time. :D
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I have smoked on lots of smokers over the years and thought I could turn out some pretty good bbq. Honestly since I have had my PBC folks are raving about what comes off of it. Now if it is you that doesn't like the food that comes off it might be it's just not for you. If ALL the people eating it says they don't like it.....you are definitely doing something wrong. Now this is just my opinion and my wife says my opinion don't mean crap most of the time. :D
JJJonz
Was it you that was questioning a creosote taste from the PBC cooks that you were doing? Someone told someone to perform a self clean or burn out at the end of their cooks. I cant remember the exact facts. The problem maybe a grease fog buildup on the sides and lid from a few cool temperature cooks and not burning off the residue build up? If that was your post about the creosote how did you correct the issue? Just asking.
CM
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In my opinion you aren't getting hot enough fire to start. You should have some smoke but you described a thick smoke which you shouldn't have. I believe your not getting a complete combustion of your coals meaning to cool of a fire which is giving you the nasty taste.
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That's exactly what it's from, because the only difference between a PBC and a bullet smoker (besides venting and internal shape) is that bullet smokers have water pans. That's where all of the juices go, rather than onto the coals to vaporize and create smoke.
Don't get me wrong, everybody; I'm not knocking the PBC. I just need to know if the flavor I'm getting is what I'm supposed to be getting. If it is, then maybe the PBC isn't for me. If it isn't, then I'm doing something wrong.
Either way, something has to change.
I've done chicken in my WSM without the water pan at high temps and not had this problem. I only go the flavor I expected from dripping chicken fat over coals (it was good). Could also be the charcoal source?
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I may have missed this early on but is this an issue with pork as well?
Tim mentions trimming the fat on the chicken and I think this needs to be done and would at least help.
Have you tried a different brand of chicken? What I have noticed and maybe even posted on a while back is that some of the chicken is so pumped up with fat and fluid these days.
I bought a couple chickens (in a yellow and green package) that lost so much moisture durning the cook I could put my fingers in between the skin and meat. And a huge cloud was coming out of the grill from these drippings. Plus the skin is tough as leather! Really odd.
I went back to the organic chicken I had been buying (they are smaller ) but I think we know why... No issues with it.
I'm not using a PBC but I saw the same issue on the infra red grill with the fog and the extreme fluid loss on IR grill , SRG and smoker...
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I have an idea, sir...
Why don't you plan to come to Fall Cookout and meet some of these guys face-to-face. It will be a great time to share ideas and pick a few brains (we'll only have a few). We'll be cookin' and tellin' lies if you get my drift.
Check the map and check your schedule for Oct 9 - 10 (possibly 11th)...Friday, Saturday, and maybe Sunday...in Byron, GA (google maps)
Details coming soonly.
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I have smoked on lots of smokers over the years and thought I could turn out some pretty good bbq. Honestly since I have had my PBC folks are raving about what comes off of it. Now if it is you that doesn't like the food that comes off it might be it's just not for you. If ALL the people eating it says they don't like it.....you are definitely doing something wrong. Now this is just my opinion and my wife says my opinion don't mean crap most of the time. :D
JJJonz
Was it you that was questioning a creosote taste from the PBC cooks that you were doing? Someone told someone to perform a self clean or burn out at the end of their cooks. I cant remember the exact facts. The problem maybe a grease fog buildup on the sides and lid from a few cool temperature cooks and not burning off the residue build up? If that was your post about the creosote how did you correct the issue? Just asking.
CM
It was me Chief...I thought I knew it all and was starting off with not hot enough fire. Once I started using it like it was designed all my were problems solved. Old habits are hard to break sometimes. :D
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I may have missed this early on but is this an issue with pork as well?
Tim mentions trimming the fat on the chicken and I think this needs to be done and would at least help.
Have you tried a different brand of chicken? What I have noticed and maybe even posted on a while back is that some of the chicken is so pumped up with fat and fluid these days.
I bought a couple chickens (in a yellow and green package) that lost so much moisture durning the cook I could put my fingers in between the skin and meat. And a huge cloud was coming out of the grill from these drippings. Plus the skin is tough as leather! Really odd.
I went back to the organic chicken I had been buying (they are smaller ) but I think we know why... No issues with it.
I'm not using a PBC but I saw the same issue on the infra red grill with the fog and the extreme fluid loss on IR grill , SRG and smoker...
I think this is an interesting point that is often overlooked. I have occasionally tried to save some money on chicken or other poultry, as well as other meat -looking back, usually it turns out less than good - regardless of the cooking method.
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Why don't you plan to come to Fall Cookout and meet some of these guys face-to-face. It will be a great time to share ideas and pick a few brains (we'll only have a few).
I will be one of the many that will be attending without the brain.
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In my opinion you aren't getting hot enough fire to start. You should have some smoke but you described a thick smoke which you shouldn't have. I believe your not getting a complete combustion of your coals meaning to cool of a fire which is giving you the nasty taste.
At first I was letting the coals burn too long, and they wouldn't last as long as needed. Noah and Amber had me limit the initial burn in a chimney to 12 minutes, then 15. The last cook, I used the lighter fluid method and let them burn about 15-20min. They were definitely hot when the chicken was hung, and there was lots of sizzling throughout the cook. Still, you may have a point.
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I may have missed this early on but is this an issue with pork as well?
Tim mentions trimming the fat on the chicken and I think this needs to be done and would at least help.
Have you tried a different brand of chicken? What I have noticed and maybe even posted on a while back is that some of the chicken is so pumped up with fat and fluid these days...
Pork ribs lean toward this taste, as well, but the flavor isn't as intense as with chicken.
I purchased the chicken from a local meat packer, and made sure to ask if they inject it with anything. They said they don't, and it doesn't look puffed up in any way. I think trimming the fat is a great idea.
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I have an idea, sir...
Why don't you plan to come to Fall Cookout and meet some of these guys face-to-face. It will be a great time to share ideas and pick a few brains (we'll only have a few). We'll be cookin' and tellin' lies if you get my drift.
Thank you for the invitation!
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Hello, I'm new to the Pit Barrel forum but I've been an avid reader of your discussions and I also pulled the trigger on a new Pit Barrel about 5 months ago. The closest I've come to experiencing the grease fog you mentioned happened on some of my first cooks where I hadn't perfected the Pit Barrel lighting methods. Regardless of the method you choose, it's important that all it is lit and hot. Sometimes it gets to temp in 20 minutes and sometimes it takes longer. Patience through the process is key to getting the best flavor.
I love moderate smoke flavor on my meats so whether I am using Kingsford or Royal Oak lump, I almost always have a few chunks of wood into the mix. Personally, I think the best chicken that's come off the Pit Barrel has come when I used lump charcoal with no smoking wood chunks!. There was not grease smoke flavor just roasted, moist goodness! (Tip- Keep the bottom of your Pit Barrel clean...make sure there is no ash or old drippings that can jump on your chicken. I like to lay foil at the bottom of the Pit Barrel as some of the other members have suggested. This helps keep my cooks fresh with the flavors I want).
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Thank you. Given all of the advice about building a hotter "fire," I may try that. However, I do have reservations because it runs contrary to the advice I get from Noah and Amber.
They each recommend exactly what's in the instruction manual, to let the coals burn 12-15 minutes, then hang the meat and add the lid. Otherwise, they say, I'm just burning up the fuel and it won't last long enough. From all of the comments in this thread and elsewhere, it sounds like very few owners actually light their PBC's this way.
Is this the case?
I'll likely try the hotter fire method just to see what happens.
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Thank you. Given all of the advice about building a hotter "fire," I may try that. However, I do have reservations because it runs contrary to the advice I get from Noah and Amber.
They each recommend exactly what's in the instruction manual, to let the coals burn 12-15 minutes, then hang the meat and add the lid. Otherwise, they say, I'm just burning up the fuel and it won't last long enough. From all of the comments in this thread and elsewhere, it sounds like very few owners actually light their PBC's this way.
Is this the case?
I'll likely try the hotter fire method just to see what happens
Just try it one time and see what you think......I'll bet you will be a happy camper. jmo
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Sometimes you have to go against Noah and Amber's advice. Make it your own, come up with your own PBC ways.
2 hours and 10 minutes is not hot and fast for chicken. 1 hours is hot and fast
I use lump charcoal for chicken, hot and fast, 1 hour, no issues.
Have you tried cleaning it? Give it a good scrub, then burn it.
Gotta start HOT! Those drippings are not just for flavor, they help control the temp. If you start cool, the drippings will just get your coals even cooler.
Maybe get the bottom vent wide open to give more oxygen to the coals. No, temp won't spike unless you mess with the rebar vents or crack the lid open
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Nothing smells worse than smoldering briquettes. Also helps to trim your meat a little bit more than you usually are used to. This fat rendering through the meat is a bunch of crap. The fat cap can help protect the meat from intense heat.
I once trimmed a brisket (select grade) of all fat just to see how it would cook up. Just as good as the ones I would not trim. So go ahead and trim a little bit more and have those coals white hot........might just help....... 8)
If for some reason the PBC is not right for you, there will be no problems selling it and you can move on to your next cooker :)
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I do love smoke flavor from real wood, but that isn't the same as the smoke/fog from dripping juices.
Yup,completely different,agree.
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Well, I haven't sold my PBC yet, and there have been a couple of suggestions I hadn't tried, so I did one more cook with the same meat (chicken leg quarters). This time, however, I changed a whole list of other factors, and guess what? Most of the problems went away.
Here's what changed:
- Humidity was only 47%, compared to 90%+ in all previous cooks.
- Bottom vent was open wider (a little less than 1/2, according to PBC instructions).
- Charcoal pan was lifted 3/8" on small scraps of ceramic tile.
- Used brand new bag of Kingsford Original, never opened, stored indoors.
- Used lighter fluid lighting method, lit at four points around outside edges of grate.
- Two large wood chunks added, between charcoal grate and edges of PBC.
- Burn-in time was 20 min with lid off, and 80-90% of coals ashed over during that time.
- Coals were so hot when lid was added, flames were rising from the middle.
And... What I think was the most important change:
- I trimmed all extra skin and fat from chicken prior to hanging.
There was no excessive dripping or sizzling from the chicken during the cook, no thick white smoke (just thin blue), and NO greasy taste to the chicken - a first for me.
Here's how the barrel temps went:
Hit 311º peak temp a few minutes after adding lid, then it quickly fell.
0:15 272º
0:30 246º
0:45 232º
1:00 227º
Probe was moved to a chicken thigh at this point, and it read as follows:
1:00 159º
1:15 160º
1:30 163º
Cracked the lid (slid sideways) to crisp up the skin
1:45 165º
1:50 169º and a lot more smoke was rolling
Pulled it for dinner
It was delicious, and a lot closer to what I was expecting when purchasing the Pit Barrel.
Bottom line:
- I think the barrel temps are still dropping too fast, but would like to hear some opinions.
- Trimming the chicken skin & fat made a huge difference. Less grease drippings = almost no grease taste.
So that's the chicken you've all been raving about!
I've posted these issues in a couple of other threads, so this will be duplicated in them, as well. Hopefully it will help others.
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Bart sounds like you are hooked....I am going to try to start trimming my meat more.
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Cooked ribs this evening:
Kept all changes as mentioned above, and trimmed as much fat as possible off the racks.
Awesome results! The family is very happy - and stuffed!
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Great news :) :)
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I am so glad Bart....At one time I thought about selling mine...so glad I didn't. I still think the grease fog is from not have a hot coals when starting. Think about it, when the drippings fall on hot coals they should evaporate immediately, if not it just causes steam.....grease fog. It also cools the coals causing a temperature drop that people talk about.