Let's Talk BBQ
Outdoor Cooking Equipment => Grills & Smokers => Stick Burners => Topic started by: Jaxon on August 28, 2013, 09:15:20 PM
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Sooo...last weekend I prepped an 8 lb pork butt by coating it with EVOO and a generous coating of "Tommy Rub" and leaving in the fridge overnite (wrapped of course).
I "smoked" it in the offset using seasoned hickory wood to an IT of 170* 'cause I was told by "someone" that the meat won't take any more smoke flavor after 165*. (true or false???)
Well, we wrapped it at 170* and let it go till 200 or so, then let it rest an hour. Of course, the bone was easy to pull - clean as a whistle - and the meat was not mushy, but had the texture we wanted. B T W, the smoker kept steady at around 225* the whole time.
HOWEVER...there was very little flavor to the meat and almost NO smoke flavor - NONE!
My question: Would such a heavy coating of rub keep the smoke from penetrating through to flavor the pork? It's the only thing I can figger. Come to think of it, there wasn't much of a smoke ring. Wouldn't all that oil and rub form a "protective shield" to keep the smoke out? I was really filibustered by this, but knew if I brought it before "the board" I MIGHT get an answer.
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I would not use olive oil. I don't like the flavor that it adds to some things. I wonder if it is so "fine" that it may have occluded the porosity of the meat.... Yet - mustard and molasses do not seem to be a problem....hmmm....
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I've been foregoing the "glue" and the pre-rub for some time now. It did not seem to make that much of a difference.
Now I rub and into the MAK they go, Not as messy either.
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I would not use olive oil. I don't like the flavor that it adds to some things. I wonder if it is so "fine" that it may have occluded the porosity of the meat.... Yet - mustard and molasses do not seem to be a problem....hmmm....
Occluded and porosity? Word of the day toilet paper? ???
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Sorry Pap...every now and then that darned education thing rears it's ugly head..... :D
How about this: "Yer meat's plugged Jack"...uh, no...now wait that did not sound really like I intended.... :-[ :-X
So - back to occluded porosity as causation for said lack of smoke flavor.... ;D
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Sorry Pap...every now and then that darned education thing rears it's ugly head..... :D
How about this: "Yer meat's plugged Jack"...uh, no...now wait that did not sound really like I intended.... :-[ :-X
So - back to occluded porosity as causation for said lack of smoke flavor.... ;D
I graduated with honors from Minnesota Penal. First in my class ???
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MiN Penal...did you learn to perform a bris? ;)
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MiN Penal...did you learn to perform a bris? ;)
I put up an innocent picture and I get cut. Maybe you should get a Moyle
Put French's mustard over the pork butt and then put on some rub that has some brown sugar in it an let it sit over night. Then put more rub on it in the morning when you are going to put it in the smoker. This will help get the smoke flavor and the bark you want on the pork butt.
Ed
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Sorry Pap...every now and then that darned education thing rears it's ugly head..... :D
How about this: "Yer meat's plugged Jack"...uh, no...now wait that did not sound really like I intended.... :-[ :-X
So - back to occluded porosity as causation for said lack of smoke flavor.... ;D
(http://www.niscienceclasses.org/main/Smileys/fantasticsmileys/main_rofl.gif) (http://www.niscienceclasses.org/main/Smileys/fantasticsmileys/main_thumbsup.gif)
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Ed is right on about the second coat of rub in the morning ... and I find mustard, Sriracha, molasses and honey all to be excellent binders that boost but don't alter flavor. That being said, some spices are oil soluble and can benefit from (drumroll please) a coating of congealed bacon grease as a binding agent.
Injecting liquids (for spice, not moisture) are an option, as is inserting whole garlic cloves as you would do with some beef preps. Oddly, I find myself habitually under-salting my cooks which is one of the biggest reasons flavor seems lacking.
Just my two cents ...
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meat only takes smoke until 140°. then the muscles tighten up and no more smoke penetration. put some molasses on your next one. ;)
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MiN Penal...did you learn to perform a bris? ;)
I put up an innocent picture and I get cut. Maybe you should get a Moyle
Put French's mustard over the pork butt and then put on some rub that has some brown sugar in it an let it sit over night. Then put more rub on it in the morning when you are going to put it in the smoker. This will help get the smoke flavor and the bark you want on the pork butt.
Ed
Thanks Ed...but I "gave at the (Dr.'s )office"... Dr. Moishe Rabinowcz.... ;)
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Meat wii take smoke as long as smoke is present. The smoke ring will usually quit forming at about 140 internal degrees. You want more smoke ring (and by the way), has very little to do with the amount of smoke flavor in your piece of meat, put the meat into the cooker straight from the fridge. Using a balanced (equal salt to sugar) rub will also help with your smoke ring and of course a sprinkle of Tender Quick will get you there as well.
Smoke ring not very important in the flavor of your meat. A fellow can get a wonderful smoke ring in his kitchen oven using a product like Tender Quick. You want more smoke flavor in you meat, I would suggest leaving it unwrapped in the cooker for a longer period of time and do keep the smoke available and it should help with the results.
Smoke doesn't penetrate your meat very deeply...in most cases, less than 1/4 of an inch and you are only adding smoke to the outside of your product.
Dave
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Jack, IMO you just got a less flavorful piece of meet. The rub woulf not keep flavor out, and as mentioned the smoke quits permeating the meet around 140. I agree that injecting would help and also some finishing rub can do wonders.
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Sooo...last weekend I prepped an 8 lb pork butt by coating it with EVOO and a generous coating of "Tommy Rub" and leaving in the fridge overnite (wrapped of course).
I "smoked" it in the offset using seasoned hickory wood to an IT of 170* 'cause I was told by "someone" that the meat won't take any more smoke flavor after 165*. (true or false???)
Well, we wrapped it at 170* and let it go till 200 or so, then let it rest an hour. Of course, the bone was easy to pull - clean as a whistle - and the meat was not mushy, but had the texture we wanted. B T W, the smoker kept steady at around 225* the whole time.
HOWEVER...there was very little flavor to the meat and almost NO smoke flavor - NONE!
My question: Would such a heavy coating of rub keep the smoke from penetrating through to flavor the pork? It's the only thing I can figger. Come to think of it, there wasn't much of a smoke ring. Wouldn't all that oil and rub form a "protective shield" to keep the smoke out? I was really filibustered by this, but knew if I brought it before "the board" I MIGHT get an answer.
1) the chemical rxn causing smoke ring stops 140F or so, the meat continues to take in smoke flavor, often a disadvantage causing you to OVERSMOKE !
2) most likely cause was OIL coating. Mustard, BBQ sauce, molasses , dry & become a part of the rub,at the temps your running the oil doesn't change & is a hydrophobic barrier .
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Meat wii take smoke as long as smoke is present. The smoke ring will usually quit forming at about 140 internal degrees. You want more smoke ring (and by the way), has very little to do with the amount of smoke flavor in your piece of meat, put the meat into the cooker straight from the fridge. Using a balanced (equal salt to sugar) rub will also help with your smoke ring and of course a sprinkle of Tender Quick will get you there as well.
Smoke ring not very important in the flavor of your meat. A fellow can get a wonderful smoke ring in his kitchen oven using a product like Tender Quick. You want more smoke flavor in you meat, I would suggest leaving it unwrapped in the cooker for a longer period of time and do keep the smoke available and it should help with the results.
Smoke doesn't penetrate your meat very deeply...in most cases, less than 1/4 of an inch and you are only adding smoke to the outside of your product.
Dave
Absolutely true.
Briskets, pork shoulders, and "roast" cuts of any kind will not pick up a lot of (or any) smoke flavor in the deep muscle portions and smokiness will usually be confied to the bark or outer portions. Imparting smoke flavor to an individual serving then becomes slicing, pulling, chopping or whatever to combine smoky bits with less smoky ones. If you have the time and inclination, there is a way to "deep smoke" large cuts.
While the exact temperature at which these cuts cease to absorb smoke is arguable (I've seen lots of articles from food scientists and they don't agree, either) the effect does take place and can be impeded further by rubs and slathers. To the rescue comes the old standby "reverse sear" that I love to use on steaks, but that will also work on roasts of all kinds.
Apply no rubs or slathers or, at least, minimal amounts if you must. "Cool Smoke" your hunk of critter for at least one hour and preferably two using a smoke generator or cooker capable of relatively intense smoke production in the 150 degree range or lower. It is a good idea to limit this time for food safety reasons since the meat will spend some time "in the zone" but a short while there isn't dangerous.
After this "cool smoke session" you can intensify the smokiness by wrapping the hunk tightly in plastic and refrigerating for a while (overnight works well). Or, you can proceed straight to regular smoking. If you want to add rub and slather after the cool smoke session, go ahead. Cook "as usual" to your preferred doneness level. Depending on the type of wood you use for the cool smoke session you'll have either light or heavy smokiness through the whole hunk.
Hub
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A dry surface will not take on as much smoke flavor as a moist surface. So oil will not be helpful in smoke adhesion as much as no oil or so other type of glue like molasses.
Also having a water pan beneath the meat will help create a moist environment for better some adhesion.
One reason for the 140F rule is the simple fact that by that time the meat has formed some type of outer bark so the smoke has less to adhere to.
Chicken takes on smoke flavor much more than beef due to it's high moisture content. So IMHO lack of moisture might have played a role in this cook.
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Thanks for the replies...I forgot to mention that I injected the pork with a mix of apple juice and apple cider vinegar...but that is irrelevant barbecue my MAIN objective is to get that good SMOKEY flavor into the meat. If I'm going to use the smoker and burn some wood, I want to taste some smoke...not a lot, but enough to know the meat has been smoked.
Now, we had conflicting opinions about the temperature of the meat and its willingness to accept smoke. I am thinking we should take a vote or conduct a poll...but that won't give us the TRUTH about it. So, I'd like for each of you who said 140* is the magic number to list the references you used to come up with that number and those of you who said it will keep on adding smoke to do the same. Just give the reasoning behind those numbers.
I'm just kiddin' here, folks. But...I will take under advisement your opinions.
This is what makes my outdoor cookin' experience so much like the game of golf. Do I use THIS club?
Last time I hit the ball 200 yards...this time it went 135 yards. What made the difference? One partner says, "You looked up before you hit the ball." The other says, "You didn't release through the ball." Another says, "You bent your left arm in the backswing."
There are SO MANY variables that come into play, that even the pros like Mickleson and Scott often miss the fairway or the green. They Do play pretty consistently, though, round after round. Every now and then, the "yips" kick in and they miss hit.
Same with smokin'...SO MANY variables that even the pros I watch on TV miss the taste or tenderness part of their presentation.
When I play golf, it is definitely not about shooting a low score - I'm just tryin' to improve on my LAST game, which may have been a 105. And if I shoot 88, I'll really celebrate for awhile and replay every birdie and par. But I know when I go out next time, I'll still have to deal with the "variables" again. It isn't so much how I score - but how much I enjoy being with the other guys out there. we're all pluggin' along tryin' to improve our game and encouraging one another from tee to green.
With my cookin', I am wanting to get to the point where I am more consistent (consistently GOOD). There are a number of variables I CAN control...the others I'll just have to learn to deal with.
That's where you folks help me so much.
I'll "tee it up" tomorrow with hopes of having a good "round", but enjoying being at the pit either way.
If this post is too long, please contact the moderator...
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Jaxon - Great analogy!
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A dry surface will not take on as much smoke flavor as a moist surface. So oil will not be helpful in smoke adhesion as much as no oil or so other type of glue like molasses.
Also having a water pan beneath the meat will help create a moist environment for better some adhesion.
I do the water pan thing every time...Now, look...you said a dry surface will not take on as much smoke as a moist surface, but then you say put something as wet and thick as molasses on it. That's makes me wonder if I should dry it or wet it down with dark, thick, sticky molasses. I know the theory is that it will make the rub stick to the meat, but it just seems like it would make a wet blanket to keep smoke out.
I'm probably missing something with my little pea brain.
B T W, I told Deb about using molasses. She didn't ask, "how much...", she asked, "how many..."
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A dry surface will not take on as much smoke flavor as a moist surface. So oil will not be helpful in smoke adhesion as much as no oil or so other type of glue like molasses.
Also having a water pan beneath the meat will help create a moist environment for better some adhesion.
I do the water pan thing every time...Now, look...you said a dry surface will not take on as much smoke as a moist surface, but then you say put something as wet and thick as molasses on it. That's makes me wonder if I should dry it or wet it down with dark, thick, sticky molasses. I know the theory is that it will make the rub stick to the meat, but it just seems like it would make a wet blanket to keep smoke out.
I'm probably missing something with my little pea brain.
B T W, I told Deb about using molasses. She didn't ask, "how much...", she asked, "how many..."
The molasses takes on smoke but the smoke flavor does not disappear. It becomes part of the bark.
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This is why you're the "hero member"...
I got to be "sr. member" just by hangin' around a long time.
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Everyone to his own! :) ;) ... I've been using Annie's Roasted Garlic EVOO for years as glue for pork, chicken and/or beef before applying rub, plastic wrap, and fridge for hours or overnight depending on the protein. Into my MAK 2 Star with great results ...