M3 Magic Rump Roast SV Style "COMPLETED"

[teesquare]

That is true *IF* you are NOT going to follow that with a cook of the recommended time and temp - based on the method you use.

In other words - if you cold smoked a piece of whole muscle ( let's assume pork tenderloin ) for 2 hours - THEN follow that by cooking in a grill at say - ( examples only ) 235F for 4 hours  - until the internal temperature ( at center of mass ) reaches 145F ( for pork - this is the current safe temp. recommendation per USDA ).

*OR* - you could Sous Vide the meat with options for doneness as follows:

 Sous Vide Pork Tenderloin Temperature Chart
Rare:   125-130°F
Medium Rare:   131-139°F
Medium:   140-149°F
Medium Well:   150-155°F
Well:   156+°F
One of the awesome things about cooking tenderloin sous vide is that you can cook as low as 134ºF and still serve it safely (of course, - See more at: http://www.sousviderecipes.net/pork/sous-vide-tenderloin#sthash.O8ZlUfFj.dpuf

Of course - it will take a minimum of 1 hour for every inch of thickness of the meat. I usually estimate based on 1-1/2 to 2 hours per inch. And here is the really cool part....
Because you are cooking in Sous Vide AT the temp. that you have predetermined that you want the meat to be - NOT cooking at a higher temp, trying to force the meat to come up to a temperature that is LESS than you are cooking at....you will not ever over-cook using Sous Vide...unless you leave int in an extra day or two

[spuds]

All of a sudden I feel so uncool for not having an SV device. 

[spuds]

Most whole meat can be cold smoked with out any worries between 40-80 degrees F. The longer it sit's in that environment increases the risk. This time of the year it is really hard to keep temps down even with the tube smoker. I have one and know it can raise the temps in my smoker above acceptable temps.
Rule of thumb: Keep meat as cold as possible (40° F or lower) during processing.

I go with the 40 to 140F in four hours with normal smoke cooks.

[spuds]

LOL,or as the wife says....You cooking that SUV? 

[spuds]

Code: [Select]

Do you not worry about it being above 40 degrees?


Not too worried Tommy. It was still partially frozen and it wasn't very warm when I pulled it off the grill. I have cold smoked
without cure for over 2 hours before without any problems. I probably should have taken the temp when I pulled it but didn't.

Than maybe I should throw away all my very expensive books from the experts that say not to do this...............people just like to live on the line. You guys really need to research what could happen to you. JUST SAYING

Devo,this link might be useful to you in understanding this regarding temps and times.I hardly feel Im living on the line cooking by this method.

http://www.douglasbaldwin.com/sous-vide.html

[smokendevo]

I'm sure you will be fine with your method of cold smoking, for me it would worry me knowing the meat was in the danger zone for 2 hours and not knowing how hot the roast got. I know many have done it and lived to tell of the great steak or roast they had for dinner. Hers a litlle something to think about.

Clostridium Botulinum is a common obligate anaerobic bacterium microorganism found in soil and sea sediments. Although it can only reproduce in an oxygen-free environment, when it does reproduce, it produces the deadliest poison known to man - botulinum toxin. One millionth of a gram ingested means certain death - about 500,000 times more toxic than cyanide. Botulinum spores are extremely persistent and will survive heating up to 250°F. (121°C), freezing, smoking, and drying. An obligate anaerobe cannot grow in the presence of oxygen. Without oxygen, the addition of sodium nitrates or sodium nitrites is necessary to completely prevent the possibility of botulism poisoning. It also becomes crucial that meat be removed from the “danger zone” temperature range as quickly as possible during any preparation or cooking process. Procedures often supported using ice, ice water, or refrigeration and freezing. As bacteria need moisture to multiply and meat is about three-quarters water, it becomes an ideal environment for the growth of bacteria, even when it is mostly dried.

[muebe]

Meats that are left out in a warm environment can be a breeding ground for bacteria without the use of a cure. When cold smoking you want to make sure that you are not creating an ideal environment for bacteria to multiply.

I have cold smoked meat before. The most I have done is 2 hours and the meat was frozen or thawing when I did it. I also added bowls of ice to keep the temps down.

I have also put meat out on the counter while thawing. I kind of look at it the same way. It can be done safely as long as you are careful.

The fact is if you get bad meat from the store not much will save you from it. Through cooking will help but it will not get rid of the toxins that are left behind by the bacteria. You will still get sick no matter how you prepare it!

When buying any meat pay attention to the look of it. Also make sure the package is sealed and not expanded(gas). And smell it. If it smells off in any way throw it out!

[teesquare]

So...answer me this Devo...:

1. Who is Thomas Keller?  What made him famous? ( see book "Under Pressure" )

2. How is it that the law allows the sale of MILLIONS of Sous Vide equipments - if the techniques is the culprit?

What I am getting at is not that you are wrong... We ALL understand the 40/40 rule ( meat should not be at 40 degrees or above for more than 40 minutes....). But the real truth here is that when we do not understand something - it is easier to criticize than to study it, and learn whether it is good or not.
Truthfully, I was a critic of Sous Vide when all of the discussion started. And then I started reading. I read all of the literature I could for Food Safety issues. THAT is the most important aspect of ANY method - so I agree with your concern...but I think there is a mis-understanding of how we can know - without any doubt what is safe, and what is not.
This link:  http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodScienceResearch/SafePracticesforFoodProcesses/ucm100198.htm has a lot of charts that show what the actual time at what temp. was needed. It is long, but may be worth your time to look at it. It deals with Botulinum, as well as other potential pathogenic bacteria.

Here is a direct quote from  www.modernistcookingmadeeasy.com  It uses Salmonella - and chicken I think ...we all know chicken is potential a greater risk meat than other land based proteins   :  ( I could not get the graph to show up - so, it is best to look at the linked page )
Pathogens, Bacteria and Salmonella in Sous Vide Cooking
One large safety concern with sous vide that has been studied in great detail deals with the propagation of bacteria at various temperatures, especially salmonella. Salmonella only thrive in a certain range of temperatures, from about 40°F to 130°F, often referred to as the "danger zone".

This danger zone is why we refrigerate our foods until an hour or so before we are ready to cook them. It is also why we cook our foods to specific temperatures before we eat them.

The biggest misconception about bacteria and the danger zone is that any food in the temperature range is not safe and as soon as you move above 130°F the food instantly becomes safe. The truth is that the bacteria begin to die in direct relation to the temperature they are exposed to.

The best way to visualize this is to think about how we humans react to heat. We do fine in climates where the temperature is below 100°F. However, once it begins to climb around 110°F or 120°F you begin to hear about deaths in the news due to heat stroke. If the temperature were to raise to 200°F stepping outside for more than a few seconds would kill you.

Bacteria behave in the exact same way. They begin to die at around 130°F to 135°F and 165°F just about instantly kills them. You can see this in the chart below, based on the USDA data. At 136°F it takes about 63 minutes for your food to be safe and at 146°F it only takes 7 minutes to become safe.



This concept is why the USDA recommends that chicken is cooked to 165°F, because at that temperature it takes only a few seconds for enough bacteria to die to achieve acceptable safety levels. In comparison, at 136°F it takes 63.3 minutes at that temperature to achieve the same safety level, something that is virtually impossible using traditional cooking methods. Using sous vide makes it possible to heat chicken and other meats to an internal temperature of as low as 130°F and hold it there long enough to kill the bacteria.

Please remember that this is assuming that your thermometer is exact and the water temperature is completely steady. I recommend always cooking foods at a little higher than the minimum temperature and a little longer than the minimum cooking time in order to account for any variance in temperature your equipment causes.

For more information about how long chicken, poultry, and beef need to be held at certain temperatures please refer to the USDA Guide mentioned in our Resources chapter. For more explanations of how this works you can reference the excellent guides by Douglas Baldwin or Serious Eats mentioned in our Resources chapter.

Similarly, from Serious Eats -  search their site for:   Pathogens, Bacteria and Salmonella in Sous Vide Cooking

[muebe]

Tee I think Devo is just talking about the cold smoking aspect of this thread and not the Sous Vide cooking method if I am reading correctly...

[smokendevo]

teesquare
I am not disagreeing with the Sous Vide cooking side at all bud. From what I read the meat was cold smoked for 2 hours before going into the vac bag. By smoking it for two hours this has become a 2 part cook as it sat in the danger zone for to long. This to me is putting the meat in a danger zone to long.

[TMB]

teesquare
I am not disagreeing with the Sous Vide cooking side at all bud. From what I read the meat was cold smoked for 2 hours before going into the vac bag. By smoking it for two hours this has become a 2 part cook as it sat in the danger zone for to long. This to me is putting the meat in a danger zone to long.

Same point I was asking about. SV cooking was not the concern at all.

[teesquare]

  I am with you...I just want to make sure that everyone else reading this thread does not equate Sous Vide with a bad method.

Any method can be abused - and cause illness, or worse. We do owe one another all of the information we can share about food safety.

Now - what I was not clear about was .... let us suppose you got some meat that was..."infected" with botulinum. You would not know it. It would not look or smell any different.

And - you cold smoked it in-correctly( warm temps out doors - meat fully thawed) for 2 hours.

Based on what I have read, and I have actually done this...the act of cooking the meat Sous Vide - for AT LEAST 2 hours per inch of thickness, at temps. which yield medium doneness or higher ( my own preference - do your own reading and form your own conclusion please) - all bacteria are killed off and the food is safe to consume.

So, to be clear - LTBBQ is saying cold smoking SHOULD be done following all known and correct food safety guidelines. And - so should Sous Vide.

Any additional thoughts on this? It is an important topic.

[HighOnSmoke]

I guess I need to clarify (or defend myself on) a few things in reference to the cold smoking of the rump roast. First off, yes it was defrosted, but not  completely. It was still fairly hard in the center. The actual time in cold smoke was 1 hour and 40 minutes. The ambient temperature outside was 78 degrees and it was windy and rainy. I just upped it to 2 hours. I do understand food safety and so far I guess, according to what I have been reading, have dodged the bullet. I took the roast off the smoker and after I took the picture, I put it in the refrigerator for 2 hours before I seasoned it and bagged it.  I normally would have temped it before I put it in the refrigerator but didn't this time. It stayed in my under 38 degree refrigerator until it hit the water bath, the next afternoon. Personally I don't see a whole lot of difference between doing it this way and then say leaving a steak on the counter to come to room temperature for an hour or more.  Anyway I will see how it turns out. If you don't see my final pictures of the cook then you know that I got sick! 

[smokendevo]

You will be fine 

[teesquare]

You will be fine 

I forgot to mention that I like to "cleanse the palate" with a high quality, high octane adult beverage or 3......The alcohol is added protection