Author Topic: Phosphates Question  (Read 5096 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline cowleyms

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Phosphates Question
« Reply #-1 on: July 11, 2013, 06:20:09 AM »
Ok so I have tried both Butchers Brand Prime Beef Injection on brisket and I have tried Kosmos Reserve Brisket injection and I can honestly say I dont like the flavors they inject into the meat. I don't know why I dont like them its just not the flavors I want. However, they both render a great bisket in terms of texture, tenderness and moisture. I believe this to be the work of the phosphates. So here is my question or subset of questions LOL:

You can buy phosphates from both Butcher's or Kosmo's, however which one is better?

Or are they the same?


I am going to assume these are the raw phosphates with no seasonings at all. Also, the directions on each packet is different. One says mix 1/4C phosphate to 2 C water and the other 1/8C per 2 C water, but instead of using water can I mix with other liquids? instead of using water can I use a mixture of Stock, worsey, soy, and EVOO as long as it equals 2C of liquid?

Offline Hub

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Phosphates Question
« on: July 11, 2013, 09:25:22 AM »
I'm not a food scientist but a fast pass on Google turns up very little good to say about phosphates.  Of course, there are a lot of food police out there who think we should eat only distilled water and bean sprouts, so I was really trying to find out what phosphates DID for the food, not the politics.  My research said they are an acidifier and emulsifier and that phosphate salts increase flavor intensity.  There are natural, organic phosphates occuring in most high protein foods but extra (assumed not "natural") phosphates are a common additive.

Translating the above I'm going to assume that adding phosphates helps with tenderness and flavor.  Duh?  I'll also assume that the occasional consumption of phosphates is probably not the end of the world unless you are a food nazi.  So . . . back to your question:

I didn't see anything about intensity of phosphates by kind or brand and I didn't see anything about recommended levels by meat or type of food preparation.  If you want to put in the effort you might find something on that if you really want to get into great depth.  Let us know if it is useful. 

Suggestions:

1.  I share your opinion that sometimes commercial injections produce a flavor I don't like.  I have a hip-pocket opinion that over-injection of this type produces the "pot roast" effect I sometimes encounter in judging.  I could be wrong -- maybe the cook boiled his brisket with carrots and taters to do that  ;).  When I use Butchers For Beef I mix it 1/2 strength -- meaning twice as much water or half as much mix to get to the amount I need.  I've never had a brisket I've cooked this way taste "potroasty" or any flavor I didn't think was appropriate.  Whether you use the injection mix or pure phosphates, try it half-strength and see if you like the results.

2.  You can make your own injection and I know lots of cooks who do.  Broth, salt, garlic and onion show up on their recipes along with MSG sometimes (a tenderizer and flavor enhancer) and other stuff.  You might try some non-commercial approaches to the injection construction.

I use injection primarily to assure moisture, not add flavor.  A little touch of flavor is okay, but I want the flavor of my brisket to be an interesting balance of the beefiness of the meat, the contribution of my rub to the bark, and the compliment of my sauce.  I expect the injection to help produce a moist texture (brisket is notorious for coming out dry-tasting, even when it is tender).  I've never tried it because I like the results I get with half-strength Butchers, but water might produce the same or a similar result.

Sorry for the long answer, but I really like your question and it is worth your time to get to a brisket you like and are proud to serve.  Let us know the results of your quest  ;D

Hub
Committed Pellethead & BBQ Writer
KCBS MCBJ & CTC
Ph.B.
Memphis Advantage
NOS American-made Traeger 075
Weber Performer
NG Weber Spirit (warming oven)
PBC
NO SMOKE DETECTOR IN MY OUTDOOR KITCHEN

Offline nepas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2838
  • Ft Pierce Fl. Member #35
Re: Phosphates Question
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 10:53:18 AM »
There are a few types of food grade phosphates.
Food grade phosphates are classified into speciality and blended phosphates.

Food grade phosphates find application in the food processing industry as buffers, emulsifiers, nutrients and discolouration inhibitors. They are mainly used in frozen and cured meat, fisheries, bakery products, milk, cheese, powdered food, breakfast cereal, petfood, animal feed products and dehydrated potatoes. They are also used in making toothpastes.

The blended phosphates provide synergistic effect in seafood, meat and cheese applications



Blended phosphate
Dipotassium
Monosodium
Sodium acid
Sodium hexametaphosphate
Sodium tripolyphosphate
Tetrasodium
Trisodium (not to be confused with TSP you get at Lowes)

Hope this helps
Flint
New Elder Wand with infa red tip.

Offline cowleyms

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: Phosphates Question
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 08:18:24 AM »
Thanks for the great responses! Hub especially you are a very knowledgeable guy! So I have decided to get a bag of phosphates from whichever is cheaper butchers or Kosmos and run me a beef stock, worsen, soy concoction and run it half strength as what it says on the bag. I think Kosmos is 1/8c and butchers is 1/4c though I may have that backwards. Any how I think this might give me a starting point. I may do two or three briskets in one shot just to test.

1 with 1/2 strength phosphate
1 with full strength phosphate
1 with no phosphate

I will keep you guys posted if and when I decide to break out of my box to try this

Offline Hub

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3037
Re: Phosphates Question
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2013, 08:53:17 AM »
A noble experiment, my friend  ;D

Please do post your results.  I'm curious.

Hub
Committed Pellethead & BBQ Writer
KCBS MCBJ & CTC
Ph.B.
Memphis Advantage
NOS American-made Traeger 075
Weber Performer
NG Weber Spirit (warming oven)
PBC
NO SMOKE DETECTOR IN MY OUTDOOR KITCHEN

Offline LostArrow

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2614
  • Often wrong but never in doubt!
Re: Phosphates Question
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2013, 11:40:36 AM »
Nutrition science is not very scientific :o
My take is , if you have renal disease Do Not eat foods with added phosphates.
If you are healthy in moderation you are probably ok.


( I'm often wrong .....but rarely in doubt!)
New Braunfels El Darado
Hasty-Bake
Genesis S-330 gasser
Weber Red Genesis 1000
Weber q220
CharBroil CB-740
Char-Griller Kamodo
Curbside kettle
Big Homemade Horizonal smoker @ hunt camp