Let's Talk BBQ
General => General Discussion & Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pappymn on August 06, 2014, 10:26:53 AM
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The wife and I took a beginners to handgun course last night at a local gun shop. 2+ hours of learning about guns and cartridges (they aren't bullets). Followed by 1.5 hours on the shooting range. We fired a 22 caliber Ruger, a 357 Smith & Wesson revolver, and a 9MM Glock.
Neither of us have ever fired a handgun. I occasionally fire my 30-06 hunting rifle to scare deer away. ???
We had a great time. And truth be told, she is a better shot then me. Her grouping was better :o
We both agreed we didn't much care for the revolver, I had a hard time aiming that thing. Really like the 9MM though.
We will be going again.
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Sounds like fun, most 9mm are great guns to shoot. Now that y'all are hooked next will be the concealed carry class. ;)
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That 357 has quite a kick don't it! Good idea to take a class Pappy. You don't want to be one of those guys shooting yourself in the foot while cleaning it ::)
My choice would be the Glock also. The only gun I currently have is the Winchester 12 gauge security model. It is the same model the police use. All black and a short barrel.
Used to keep it loaded at my old house. Now I just leave it unloaded in the case. My new neighborhood is much nicer ;)
I had to jump through hoops out here in California just to get a rifle. And getting a handgun is even tougher :(
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My $0.02... I prefer either a .40 or a .45 for self defense concealed carry. The whole point of a CC weapon is to put someone down (or at least convince them that you will) at very short range when in a life threatening situation. The .45 is the ultimate stopping weapon IMO due to the caliber and also the slow rate of bullet travel. The .40 loses the slower rate of travel effect but still is an improvement over the 9MM while only being marginally heavier and harder in recoil. I really like the 10MM, but ammo is very expensive and hard to come by in a lot of areas.
Either way, good for you taking the class.
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2+ hours of learning about guns and cartridges (they aren't bullets).
Did they also teach that the spring loaded device that you put the cartridges in, on the semi-auto's, is called a magazine (they aren't clips). ;)
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2+ hours of learning about guns and cartridges (they aren't bullets).
Did they also teach that the spring loaded device that you put the cartridges in, on the semi-auto's, is called a magazine (they aren't clips). ;)
They sure did! ;D
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2+ hours of learning about guns and cartridges (they aren't bullets).
Did they also teach that the spring loaded device that you put the cartridges in, on the semi-auto's, is called a magazine (they aren't clips). ;)
They sure did! ;D
Then you took a good class. ;D
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That 357 has quite a kick don't it! Good idea to take a class Pappy. You don't want to be one of those guys shooting yourself in the foot while cleaning it ::)
My choice would be the Glock also. The only gun I currently have is the Winchester 12 gauge security model. It is the same model the police use. All black and a short barrel.
Used to keep it loaded at my old house. Now I just leave it unloaded in the case. My new neighborhood is much nicer ;)
I had to jump through hoops out here in California just to get a rifle. And getting a handgun is even tougher :(
Thats the truth,that 22 ruger is a nice shooter,wife is dead-eye at the range,much better than me.We dont have pistols either,as muebe says....
Very good pappy. ;)
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I like the .357 Magnum as you can shoot the lighter recoiling .38 special for fun and the magnums for serious business.
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Shot one of these (not sure which one) in the 1911
http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911
Man I so want one ;D
I also have the 30-06 Pappy ;)
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I have several short guns and a couple long guns. I agree about the .40/.45 and my everyday carry is the Springfield sub .40 with a change up with the 357 (lighter). My wife once had the pink lady, but when the barrel blew off while I was shooting it I made her get a real run, glock, and she choose the .45 sub. A bit much for her I thought at first but she can shot a real tight group with it.
Something I found interesting was the kimber only makes 1911's, and I want one or two also.
You and your wife really need to get your CWP if only to protect yourselves moving the weapons. But always remember, if you don't have your permit with you, you don't have a permit.
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RAD
Kimber also makes some very fine rifles as well
Ruger is now making a very cost effective and durable 1911
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RAD
Kimber also makes some very fine rifles as well
Ruger is now making a very cost effective and durable 1911
You are correct, I was referring to hand guns. Kimber makes fine guns all around.
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Pappy, Congratulations on taking the first step to personal security. I keep a Remington R1 full sized 1911 in the truck in a concealed holster behind the console and a Ruger Stainless Commander 1911 in a tuckable crossdraw as my everyday carry gun. Joy of living in Texas with a CHL, I never leave home with out both and if I'm talking to an officer their only interested in how I like my holster and pistol combo. Most important thing for a new handgunner is to use what is safe and fit's your needs, I love my .45 ACP for the stopping power, but with the right ammo a 9mm can be very effective.
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Shot one of these (not sure which one) in the 1911
http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911
Man I so want one ;D
Here's mine: Kimber Ultra+ CDP - Tritium 3 dot night sights, match grade barrel, premium match grade trigger, rosewood checkered double diamond grips, one sweet gun to carry concealed and shoot.
(http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n615/ramelancon/e411cfc3ffe986b2091886b1b5d27bfb.jpg)
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Welcome to fraternity Pappy. (And I mean that in the non-sexist way.)
One thing to remember is that, no matter what the caliber or stopping power if a handgun is, it's only effective if you're comfortable carrying it.
While the .45, 9mm, etc. are all great. And what I'm about to say is in no way a slight on any of those weapons or the individuals who chose to carry them. I am certainly no better or no smarter than the next guy, in fact, I know the opposite is often true.
I carry a Colt Mustang .380. Why, because (using an appropriate "holster") I can comfortably fit it in my front pants pocket and it's perfectly invisible. So, no matter what else I'm wearing, except maybe a bathing suit, it's always with me. It is a little on heavy side compared to most of the small frame/small caliber polymers, but I can live with better than feeling like I have to strap something on.
BD
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Nothing wrong with a Mustang with the appropriate ammo, I carried the predecessor, the Pony with WW Silver Tips until recently when I got my new rig for the Commander. With my new rig I can actually carry in the gym if I choose to with shorts and t shirt.
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I really like the spring field series and have been eyeing the .45 ACP XDS. Lot of power in a slim light weight gun with great reviews.
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Pappy, Don't feel bad about being out shoot by the wife. My oldest daughter beats me with both a rifle and pistol. Beat me with the rifle when she was 11.
I carry a KelTec 38 because of the reasons Big Dawg listed. In the summer I wear shorts and a small pistol is easy to put in the pocket. I have been known to look as if I'm packin' when wearing a bathing suit in my younger days. :D
Dee
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I have been know to look as if I'm packin' when wearing a bathing suit in my younger days. :D
Dee
It's amazing how old age affects one's memory. Some of us even suffer from illusions of grandeur. :D :D :D
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I have been know to look as if I'm packin' when wearing a bathing suit in my younger days. :D
Dee
It's amazing how old age affects one's memory. Some of us even suffer from illusions of grandeur. :D :D :D
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/laughing/laughing-my-ass-off-smiley-emoticon.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
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Awesome Pappy, I've been trying to get the wife to go to the gun range for years.
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some of you ppl carry guns every day?
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some of you ppl carry guns every day?
Not now, but I did for a long time.
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some of you ppl carry guns every day?
Not now, but I did for a long time.
No, not everyday. Only the days I leave the house. ;)
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some of you ppl carry guns every day?
Yep!!! ;D
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some of you ppl carry guns every day?
Yep!!! ;D
x2
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You ppl carrying guns, are you cops?
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You ppl carrying guns, are you cops?
No, the only reason I carry a gun is because a cop is too heavy.
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You ppl carrying guns, are you cops?
No, the only reason I carry a gun is because a cop is too heavy.
That was really funny. ;D
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If it was not so hard here in California I would get a CWP :'(
It is really difficult to holster a shotgun!
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while I am not a gun person my wife wants to be. I hope that any of our members that are cops or carry guns to plz be safe. I have a lot of respect for our law enforcement ppl. my brother n law works for a federal agency in law enforcement. he gives me a lot of grieve for some of the things I do. he is real nice guy. but I carry his card w/ me all the time. it has helped sometimes. ::)
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Sparky, the way I look at it, I don't wear a helmet only when I think I'm going to be in a wreck, I wear a helmet every time I ride, period.
It's the same thing if you are carry for personal protection. I don't just carry when I think I'm going be headed into a scary situation, in fact I really try to avoid those. I carry all the time because, just like when I'm on my bike, I don't know when a bad situation is going to sneak up and find me.
In fact, I was over a friends house yesterday for 5-6 hours working on some BBQ stuff and I doubt the either he or his wife had any idea.
BD
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sound logical to me BD.
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Nope. Only on days that end in "y". Dee
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It is unfortunate that we live in a time which the bad guys seem to get all of the advantages....
But - here are a couple of "personal truths" I live by:
1.Averge response time for a policeman is 15 minutes. Most handgun calibers travel at 2000+ feet per second. So, if I ever need protection in seconds...a cop is 15 minutes away. Not his fault - just logistics.
2. I have at least as much right to protect my life - and those near me - than a thug who desire to take those lives. May God have mercy on him. I will not.
Now, I am not a "chest thumper". I do NOT believe that announcing or advertising that I carry ads anything to my ...legend ;D ::)...Nor does it help in preserving the peace, as there are thugs that are always looking for an opportunity to do harm. I DO believe that we are obliged to avoid circumstances which could lead to having to draw a firearm.
Having said that - I also have insurance on my health, and my home and my car.
Therefore - I carry insurance against insanity, stupidity and poor judgement as well. ;)
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Well said Tee. I've enjoyed all the input on this.
Wife and I were talking the other day that if we had to defend ourselves I would hand her the gun as she is the better shot.
But the reality is my wife is a sweet woman and it would haunt her. I on the other hand am highly rational and would move on very quickly. Just how my brain works.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/10/yha6e6ap.jpg)
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Thanks Pappy.
Make no mistake - should that horribly un-fortunate day ever come where you have to pull the trigger, you can't call the bullet back. It is a life altering decision for one, and a life ending decision for the other person. Be sure. Be quick - but don't hurry....
And - the only way to accomplish this with competency - is training. Practice, practice, practice. Take courses. get involved with a range that does scenario training. Consider taking up 3-gun contests as a hobby.
Who knows what our future brings - from day to day?
So, for me the best solution has always been first - situational awareness. Not paranoia, but truly being aware of as much of what is going on around you as possible. I see people "tune out" everything around them in any circumstance you can imagine....this is a formula for becoming a victim and statistic.
Second, avoid those situations that do not "feel right" in your gut. Your head can talk you out of things sometimes. Let your gut make the final check.
Just do things the right way. When bad things happen - it is not like in the movies. It is over in a flash, again training is the key. You want to be able to count on training instinct and muscle memory to take over while your logic center in your brain is trying to reason thru the shock of the moment.
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Since there are no youngun's in my house I keep a loaded double barrel shotgun by the bed loaded with buck shot. Dee
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well, this has really opened my eyes to the way other ppl think. I always tell my kids, "don't but yourself in a bad situation". I believe in that fully. I have in my younger days ran w/ a not so nice crowd. most of my friends back then carried guns. me, I really like knifes for protection back then. nice and quiet. i have taken a lot of martial arts courses on many different styles for a long time. hurt ppl real bad i have no problem w/. I myself believe that I don't have the right to take another person's life. that is the reason I joined the USCG. to save ppl. I have meritorious citations for saving lifes. I feel good about that. me killing someone would wipe all that away. I would have a hard time living w/ myself after that. if I had a gun I would probably shoot someone anyway. as I am getting older I have less patience for stupidity in ppl. I will say that if I every go out drinking I sure do wish I hang out w/ you guys. will still be friends right? ;)
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sparky, Still friends. Everything and everybody ain't the same. That's why God made both vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Don't worry if we are somewhere and you want the bad guy taken care of before he gets within knife range...one of us will handle it for you and not lose a minute of sleep. I'd look at it as just improving the gene pool. Dee
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Tee-Some really great points. When I went to get my CWP I was told that since I had been in the military I wasn't required to take the course. I still spent the $35 and took the course. When my wife went for hers I sat in the training. We go to the range to keep fresh and to know our guns.
Pappy - whatever you decide on remember that you have young ones in the house and make sure you think about how you are going to secure your weapons. When my girls were young I taught them about guns, field stripping, cleaning, and shooting. Most importantly, respecting them.
sparky - we would always have your back but once I start drinking my gun goes in the safe.
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The point about social responsibility should not be muted. The objective of carrying concealed is NOT to take a life. It is to avoid such. As well- the objective is to save lives, your own sure - but the responsibility that you have as a carrying person is to first determine if you CAN help the situation by acting, and if response to the threat is even warranted by using a firearm.
I see many folks take the CCW ( Concealed Carry ) course, and they come away with a "boldness" - now that they can carry legally, and concealed. This boldness can cause a person to ignore the avoidance of circumstances that previously would cause his gut to tell him to avoid. Now he has "protection"... THIS is a false confidence - and at best could lead to imprisonment ( because if your judgement is skewed to not avoiding questionable circumstance - then your judgement concerning when you are legally allowed and morally o.k. with the use of your firearm. There is no "one answer fits all". The bumper sticker mentality of "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" shows a cavalier lack of thinking ability.
Sparky, I love my blades, and feel naked with out a knife. It is a tool, and while more multi-purpose than a firearm, it too can be a protective weapon.
Everyone must be comfortable with their decision to carry or not carry. It is serious, and in my opinion - a person that gets a thrill from carrying should NOT be allowed to carry. It is a responsibility that a person should understand, and not take as lightly as I have seen some that do. You are putting yourself in a position of determining someone else's right to live or die.
And - in balance, you have more of a right to continue living, than someone else has to take that right.
Big picute, and many viewpoints. Your decision to carry is MORE than about self-responsibility. Now, you are responsible to the law, and all of society to use sound judgement.
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The point about social responsibility should not be muted. The objective of carrying concealed is NOT to take a life. It is to avoid such. As well- the objective is to save lives, your own sure - but the responsibility that you have as a carrying person is to first determine if you CAN help the situation by acting, and if response to the threat is even warranted by using a firearm.
I see many folks take the CCW ( Concealed Carry ) course, and they come away with a "boldness" - now that they can carry legally, and concealed. This boldness can cause a person to ignore the avoidance of circumstances that previously would cause his gut to tell him to avoid. Now he has "protection"... THIS is a false confidence - and at best could lead to imprisonment ( because if your judgement is skewed to not avoiding questionable circumstance - then your judgement concerning when you are legally allowed and morally o.k. with the use of your firearm. There is no "one answer fits all". The bumper sticker mentality of "I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" shows a cavalier lack of thinking ability.
Sparky, I love my blades, and feel naked with out a knife. It is a tool, and while more multi-purpose than a firearm, it too can be a protective weapon.
Everyone must be comfortable with their decision to carry or not carry. It is serious, and in my opinion - a person that gets a thrill from carrying should NOT be allowed to carry. It is a responsibility that a person should understand, and not take as lightly as I have seen some that do. You are putting yourself in a position of determining someone else's right to live or die.
And - in balance, you have more of a right to continue living, than someone else has to take that right.
Big picute, and many viewpoints. Your decision to carry is MORE than about self-responsibility. Now, you are responsible to the law, and all of society to use sound judgement.
this was so profound. I read it and then read it out loud to my wife. we whole heartily agree w/ everything you said. I would like to thank all of you who posted stuff in this thread. and because of all the stuff I have read and read to my wife from this thread we are going to look into taking a handgun class (this is so against my natural). we do have a cabin in the woods and some protection up there wouldn't be a bad thing. you can only do so much w/ a baseball bat and a machete. ;)
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There are also some misconceptions about people having CWPs and murder rates. Some people say that giving everyone a gun will make it like the Wild West! Now I say is that really a bad thing? If a modern city had people carrying weapons like in old western towns would it be a wild city of killing?
How many murders do you suppose these old western towns saw a year? Let's say the bloodiest, gun-slingingest of the famous cattle towns with the cowboys doing quick-draws at high noon every other day. A hundred? More?
How about five? That was the most murders any old-west town saw in any one year. Ever. Most towns averaged about 1.5 murders a year, and not all of those were shooting. You were way more likely to be murdered in Baltimore in 2008 than you were in Tombstone in 1881, the year of the famous gunfight at the OK Corral (body count: three) and the town's most violent year ever.
In 2003 over 500 people were murdered in the city of Los Angeles. And we are more civilized than the old west?
And why is that? IMHO it is because if you were going to use your gun on someone in the Old West that someone will more than likely be carrying one too. That is a deterrent. The weapon was worn on the hip and not concealed. They knew what they would be up against.
Criminals rarely have a registered and legal firearm. And in cities with tight gun controls they can brandish their weapons in confidence knowing it is very unlikely the other person will have a gun themselves.
There are many stories of armed citizens thwarting a criminal during a robbery and saving lives. Unfortunately these stories are not newsworthy and get pushed to the back page or not even talked about.
No matter your opinion on this subject it is important to know the truth about the statistics from both sides to make an educated decision. Some great information has been provided in this thread.
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Great comments Muebe.
In Minnesota they passed something a couple of years ago that basically had all businesses and government buildings post signs on their front door saying guns are not allowed on the premises.
The only people this pleased were sign making businesses and criminals.
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/11/eva5u7ub.jpg)
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I respect anyones decision on whether to carry,or own,a weapon. I hope if I get stuck in a bad situation a CCW person is on site.
2 RNs here so another thats very pro life by nature,and if it was them or me gonna die,I would would prefer it be the criminal,wouldnt want to kill,but if I HAD to,no other way out I would have to.
That said,we believe more in non lethal approaches that can be ratcheted up if needed.Starts with lights, fences and big dogs,goes up from there,that alone takes care of most of my threats
Pepper spray and a stun gun can really diffuse a hothead/bully type really fast,certainly a quick attitude change and reassessment of situation on their part.A truly bad guy,not so much.
CCW isnt possible where I live,just getting a handgun now is VERY difficult here.
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Muebe, I'm glad you posted about the "Wild West". It was much safer than TV and the movies make it. From what I understand there is only one documented case of a "quick draw" shoot out at "high noon". It's amazing how the media can spread ignorance. It's not a new thing either because I grew up thinking it was as in the movies since we heard no different.
There was no such thing as "fair" fights. It's like someone said, "If you find yourself in a fair fight....you didn't plan properly."
From what I remember there were over 2 million cases of people using pistols, rifles, and shotguns to protect themselves last year. And I think the number of illegal use of guns was around 25,000. The numbers may not be exact but the multiples are pretty close.
Dee
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1. During the first fifteen years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 229 to 155 margin.
2. And even the 155 "crimes" committed by concealed carry permit holders are somewhat misleading as most of these infractions resulted from Floridians who accidentally carried their firearms into restricted areas, such as an airport
https://www.gunowners.org/sk0802htm.htm
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There are many stories of armed citizens thwarting a criminal during a robbery and saving lives. Unfortunately these stories are not newsworthy and get pushed to the back page or not even talked about.
No matter your opinion on this subject it is important to know the truth about the statistics from both sides to make an educated decision. Some great information has been provided in this thread.
2012 FBI statistics (most recent data available)—
● Number of murders in US: 14,827 (link, 2012 FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Table 7 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/tables/7tabledatadecpdf/table_7_offense_analysis_united_states_2008-2012.xls))
● Percent committed with firearms: 69.3% (link, 2012 FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Expanded Homicide Data Table 7 (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_7_murder_types_of_weapons_used_percent_distribution_by_region_2012.xls))
● Number of murders committed with firearms: 10, 275 (calculated by author)
● Firearms prevent anywhere from 800,000 to over 2 million violent crimes every year (link, Cato Institute, Tough Targets: When Criminals Face Armed Resistance from Citizens (http://www.cato.org/publications/white-paper/tough-targets-when-criminals-face-armed-resistance-citizens))
● Preventable medical errors (malpractice) kill between 210,000 and 400,000 people a year (link, Journal of Patient Safety: A New, Evidence-based Estimate of Patient Harms Associated with Hospital Care (http://journals.lww.com/journalpatientsafety/Fulltext/2013/09000/A_New,_Evidence_based_Estimate_of_Patient_Harms.2.aspx))
● There are 79,000 annual US deaths attributable to excessive alcohol use (link, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Alcohol and Public Health (http://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/ardi.htm))
● There are 480,000 annual US deaths attributable to cigarette smoking (link, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Cigarettes and Death (http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/health_effects/tobacco_related_mortality/index.htm))
Draw your own conclusions as to where the public attention should focus.
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Glock—
Are any of you Glock owners concerned about the number of unintended discharges because of the Glock trigger/safety arrangement? Glock devotees will say, "That's the fault of the gun handler." Sure it is, but it won't happen with conventional safeties.
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Well done Paul. Well done. Dee
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It really hit me when I read something about wolves, sheep, and sheepdogs.
Like someone previously posted, when I was younger, I was much closer to the wolf than I am now. As I got older, matured, raised a family, etc. I always thought of myself as their protector.
I guess that makes me the sheepdog.
And like the originator of the phrase, I am not using sheep in any sort of a pejorative way but simply to refer to most people who are kind, gentle, and caring by nature.
BD
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I am not using sheep in any sort of a pejorative way
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What you talkin about Willis!?
http://youtu.be/pCrjLVSapII