Let's Talk BBQ
General => General Discussion & Topics => General Discussion => Topic started by: teesquare on August 12, 2014, 05:09:10 PM
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I am working hard to be civilized, and coherent thru the anger.... >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
I chose to NOT renew my Amazon Prime acct. this year. It was not that I saw no savings - I did.... It was making the only choice that we can make as consumers. TO "vote" with my wallet. It ticked me off that their business continues to get larger - and yet they can't show enough profit ( if any) - so they choose to penalize ME and YOU for an apparently un-sustainable business model.They raised the Amazon PRIME acct. cost to $100. Greed combined with a lack of understanding the customer. I figured I would not renew for a few months, and see if I changed my mind. There are plenty of other places to buy the same items, and some at or close to the same prices.
So, I continued to get notices from Amazon that needed to renew my Prime acct. and that the card on file needed to be up-dated. I INTENIONALLY ignored these, and did NOT up-date my acct information. But, because I had used a second acct occasionally - which was a small bank acct. and debit card for "slush funds" and small purchases....
And today I went to the Post Office to buy a money order for some gun parts I am going to order. ( Seller's preferred method of payment is a US Postal Money Order ). Card declined...TWICE...
I leave - embarrassed as @#$%....And get to my car - and call my bank. The teller that I know there looked up acct. details - and told me that AMAZON HAD TAKEN $99.95 OUT OF MY ACCT.!!!!! Because I KNEW how much is in that acct. ALL of the imd - I seemed impossible for it to be darn near $300 over-drawn..... BUT - that CAN happen when AMAZON zaps your acct., then the charge for over-draft hit, and you use that same acct. for a few $5 and $10 purchase - because you have to add $30 overdraft charge for EACH of those!!!
It took a couple of minutes of deep breathing and meditation to get my head back to a place where I could be civil to anyone else I might encounter.
But when I got home - and located a phone number for Amazon.......( I really do not like to lambaste Customer Service folks...it is not their fault ) I begged to a person in management until I finally got someone..... And I got some attitude....( insert more deep breathing and re-focusing here...) And then we discussed his parentage, genetics and whether his father ever did the right thing by his momma - AND *IF* I needed to come to California and get him to bend over so I could extract MY money from his @$$. I got put on hold.....
He came back, apologized - looked at my Prime acct - and saw what Amazon had done. Asked if they could refund the $99.95...? I told him !@#$% NOOOO!!!! I will not accept a PARTIAL PAYMENT. Make the choice: Pay me what you cost me via your greed - or I will construct websites (yes - PLURAL) about this experience - and contact EVERYONE I KNOW and re-tell the story. I was asked to hold again.
After a few minutes he came back and told me that he had requested the other $180 to be returned to my acct.....
We will see, but suffice it to say I AM DONE WITH AMAZON. Such a relationship must have an element of trust with my acct. numbers. Well...they pretty much screwed the pooch on that count - huh?
O.K....headed for the "medicinal liquids" cabinet, and the ice dispenser now.....
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Reason I DON'T buy from such places. I try to buy from folks I know and trust
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I feel for you Tee, good thing you don't live in Canada and order from Amazon, every once in a while the border nazi will take their percentage for processing the package.
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Amazon has an amazing business model and has had tremendous success in its relatively short life. They were recently cited as one of the top ten most liked businesses by their customers. I'm not defending them, though. You were wronged by a process they controlled and then you got a jerk supervisor in the call center. Neither event should have happened. If it were MY business that had done this to you I'd be doubling your refund AND supplying the booze ???
Here's a little warning for everyone who reads this from somebody who has been to hell and back with this kind of account charging -- I was a personal banker, a bank operations officer, and a bank management consultant for a long, long time. I've totally lost count of how many (hundreds, at least) times I had to get on the horn to some company that had required debit authorization for some charge in lieu of billing or customer-authorized credit. This puts them, not you, in the "driver's seat" for your funds. Very, very often it wasn't the fact of the charge but an unexpected/incorrect amount, timing, or totally ignoring a stop order on it that was the problem. Very, very often it wasn't the company's policy or procedure, but was, instead, the action of some employee who didn't understand the situation or wasn't trained to handle it properly. Over the years I piled up a lot of apology letters from a lot of insurance companies, cosmetics vendors, direct marketers, and others who "got religion" once somebody got through to the right person to get it fixed (not always easy and never quick).
Moral: Unless the benefit is substantial (and Amazon Prime can be) don't give anyone direct debit access to your accounts even if they are just small ones like the one you maintained for this purpose (a good idea since Reg Z does not cover non-credit purchases although most banks go ahead and protect their customers anyway). Its a jungle out there, particularly in e-commerce where it can be hard to find a real human being to grab the bull by the tail and face the situation :'(
Chevy Chase, in one of the Fletch movies had a great line, "I recommend drinking heavily". Some days . . . some days!
Hub
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Thanks fellas.
For the record, I had previously been an Amazon Prime customer for a few years...And had always praised them as my "go to" resource for EVERYTHING.
But I cannot imagine that for me- this "relationship" with Amazon is repairable. It was a breech of trust. I see it no differently than if a waiter pushes the desserts - and you decline SEVERAL TIMES....then you pay the check, put the receipt in your pocket - and only a couple of days later discover - he charged you for dessert anyway!!!
Sure, I should have looked at the receipt...shame on me for TRUSTING. But that DOES NOT excuse, liberate or otherwise give permission to commit monetary assault on my wallet.
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Tee I can understand why you are upset but in their defense you did not contact them back about not renewing and they did contact you about a problem with your renewal of prime.
Lets change it up a bit. Suppose you did want prime but never contacted them and they closed your prime account. Then you went to buy something with one click and found you paid more for something because your prime account was closed. Would you be upset they closed it? And you might argue that you had another valid card on the account to charge with and why did they not use that one instead.
I am confident that Amazon will correct it for you. I have had issues before and Amazon made every effort to correct them.
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I think of it as SIMPLE....
When you DO NOT want something that someone wants to sell you - YOU DECLINE. I DECLINED 3 times. I DID NOT renew my card, nor did I give them one to replace the card I used for my Prime membership.
Had I wanted to re-new...I would have done so. If I had allowed my prime acct. to lapse, no problem - I can re-new it INSTANTLY, - again, no problem. I disagree that the current mentality among subscription services of ANY kind is that they AUTO renew. I can be responsible for me. It is MY cookie jar. WHY should I have to keep an eye on it - to prevent someone else from taking more cookies than I told them they could have? In a normal world THAT IS THEFT.
THEY took it upon themselves - to charge ANOTHER card I had used as A BACKUP.
Here is an e-mail from them. I think it sums up.. an "admission" of guilt/error.
This is Rhem, your Amazon customer service. Thank you for giving me the chance to help you with your concern.
I've requested a refund of $180.00 to your card for the overdraft fees. This refund should go through within 5 business days and will appear as a credit on your next debit card billing statement.
I've canceled your Prime membership and requested an additional refund of $99.00 for the membership fee. The refund should be processed within the next 2-3 business days and will appear as a credit on your next debit card billing statement.
I hope this helps.
Best regards,
So - based on THAT.....they will at least "clean the slate". Fine, and I appreciate that. But I cannot say that I appreciate being drug thru the embarrassment - nor do I consider it any excuse for the presumptuous use of ANOTHER card OTHER than what I had on file for my Amazon Prime acct. THAT IS WRONG... Obviously, they too - agree. Or - they would not offer to re-pay the monies that they cost me.
I can live very well without Amazon, and - they will never notice one individual's absence. There will not be a condition under which i will give them another credit OR debit card. Period.
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Thats darn good they are paying the late fee's.Most companies would tell you to stuff it.At least they listened,had a mechanism to get to them,AND responded.
Some are just plain crooks like That Shopping Gourmet outfit that stiffed me for a heat infrared gun,has billed my acct,and is prepared to do it again,with ZERO way to reach them because they ARE thieves,no ifs ands or butts.And they have every angle to stop you from stopping payments,like you are required to notify them FIRST,but no way to do so.THIEVES!
Amazon did right by you in fixing it,above and beyond IMO.At least at Amazon I can reach,cancel,and seek redress,other sites that are shady you cant.I know Amazon isnt a criminal theft front.Others I dont.
But I see all you say and why you feel as you do.They made a really stupid,inexcusable attack on your bank funds IMO.Would t me off too,big time.
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I think we have all been lulled to feel it's "O.K." with hidden fees ( hidden within 37 pages of double fine print - that THEY KNOW you can't justify the time to read) by CC companies, and subscription services of various kinds.
For ME the epiphany is this: If I screw up - and something expires, or cancels - fine. My fault. But it is MY money to determine the use of. I cannot fathom how - as an entire populace we allowed the banking lobby to push thru a diametric shift in the law governing annual charges/renewals.
Not too many years ago - YOU had to renew anything which costs you money in order to keep that acct. active. Makes sense - *IF* you ascribe to the philosophy that it is YOUR money, and YOU can determine which you wish to keep, or which you wish to discontinue.
Nowadays you have to watch EVERYTHING EVERYDAY - to insure that you are not being double billed, over-charged, auto renewed or just plain ripped-off....
I am about 1 gnat's whisker from converting to ALL CASH.....GOd, it would be glorious if we could start the economy over and re-gain control. Self-control, and control of the "robber-barons".
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For any services that require yearly renewal like Netflix, XM radio, domain renewals, etc I just do not keep a credit card on file and I do not check the automatic renewal box. When it comes times for renewal they just email me and remind me that my account(s) expire on a certain date. I then go online and renew the service manually. Nowadays usually with PayPal. Keeps things more simple for me. :)
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I hear ya Pete. But, I don't think all subscription services operate by the same principles. Some "auto renew" - and you have to write down the date on a calendar, to remember to call or e-mail and STOP the renewal.
BTW - I love PayPal. Works. Period. But..Amazon will not accept PayPal. After all- PayPal is owned by E-bay - their chief competitor I suppose.
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Tee, is fired up! Bet my monthly fee to LTBBQ are going to go up ???
I love Amazon......they did more then any other company.....including banks......would have done
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Sounds like an awful experience. For that very reason I take advantage of what my bank offers as a sort of single use virtual credit card. For example, if I make a purchase of $199, I can go into online banking and create a temporary credit card number with a limit of $199 which is good at a single vendor for 2 months.
Sure, it is an extra step that takes more time and bother, but I am never surprised with "extra" charges
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I've always found Amazon to be willing to correct any errors quickly and equitably with a single phone call. It may or may not help that I have only one credit card registered with them and I don't use it for anything else so I'm not worried about having the card refused elsewhere.
Amazon will remain my "go to" source for many locally available items as long as Hawaii's inflated prices exceed the Amazon price by as much as 50% (far more than our isolation and actual shipping costs merit). I also, of course, use them for many items I can't get locally and will continue to do so.
Having said all that, I have to agree that although they can make life easier in many ways, the current financial systems in place require consumers to keep a closer eye on their exposure.
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I know a lot of people like Amazon, so there is a little bit of an apologist tone to this thread. Personally, I have found the value of their service decreasing for a while now. For convenience they can't be beat but their prices are not only no better than most places they are more expensive in many cases. I think folks forget that Prime isn't free shipping. It is basically prepaid shipping. Once the money is gone, it feels like a great deal as you use it. If you utilize ship to store (or other promos) with a lot of retailers, you can get free shipping pretty easily. Even Amazon can be dealt with if you can accept a little slower shipping. I cannot think of one thing that I have ordered from an online retailer that getting it sooner than say 5 days was anything other than a bonus. It was never necessary. Add to all this the increased pricing and the power play that Amazon was been waging on vendors for the past couple of years, and I will continue to pass.
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Tee they corrected it and did everything you asked. Paid all the fees you had. Went way above and beyond what was required to correct their mistake.
This has been my experience with Amazon every time there has been an issue.
And yes there might be a pre payment for shipping with prime but I use Amazon enough that it is worth it for me.
I used to do the best bargain shopping online and found some great deals until I found that great deal never arrived to my home, or took months to get, or double charged my credit card, or fraudulent charges, or the wrong product arrived at my home when it finally got there, etc.
When I buy something on Amazon I know what I order will arrive on time and in perfect condition. And if it doesn't they will take care of it promptly.
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No argument with any of you, and - you all make some valid, worthwhile points....
The bad experience I had with Amazon with simple: BREACH OF TRUST. If you re-read the detail in what happened - you will notice that Amazon USED A CARD THAT THEY WERE NOT GIVEN PERMISSION TO. It was a card that I used on Amazon a few times - and was NOT the card I had on file for my Amazon Prime renewal.
Imagine this: I dropped my wallet while filling up my car. You - know me, and see this happen. You pick up my wallet, but remove money - then return my wallet. I thank you for returning my wallet......
1. DO I then have the right to ask you why you kept my money? Then I tell you to give it back. And you comply.
2. DO you feel a moral vindication because you gave me back MY money? DO you feel I am wrong to question your motives?
You see - I am not sure that the "apologetic return" of my money ( which is all a theory BTW...has not happened yet ) was motivated by moral compunction. I think it was "Gee - I am sorry that you caught me"
I just do not have the flexibility in my personal philosophy that allows myself to be screwed by the same person or company more than once. It may seem harsh to you, but - that is who I am. We are all individuals.
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Tee I would agree if they did not correct the problem. A mistake was made and they did correct it. They paid all your extra fees you encountered due to their mistake. I think they went beyond what most other companies would do.
Amazon allows you the option to not save the card on file. And it may say in the fine print when they have another valid card on file they will use that to renew your prime membership. When they notified you the other card was not valid that means they were attempting to renew your membership automatically. So by you not answering their request they moved onto another card that was valid. Does not make it right but might be their policy. And this could all be an automated process by the system and not even an individual.
I am aware that my prime membership will automatically renew unless I notify them otherwise. They do send me an email letting me know in advance that it will be renewing and if I want to cancel to contact them. I think it can be changed in your account settings on the site.
So I understand why your upset my only point is that they did correct the problem.
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Tee I would agree if they did not correct the problem. A mistake was made and they did correct it. They paid all your extra fees you encountered due to their mistake. I think they went beyond what most other companies would do.
Amazon allows you the option to not save the card on file. And it may say in the fine print when they have another valid card on file they will use that to renew your prime membership. When they notified you the other card was not valid that means they were attempting to renew your membership automatically. So by you not answering their request they moved onto another card that was valid. Does not make it right but might be their policy. And this could all be an automated process by the system and not even an individual.
I am aware that my prime membership will automatically renew unless I notify them otherwise. They do send me an email letting me know in advance that it will be renewing and if I want to cancel to contact them. I think it can be changed in your account settings on the site.
So I understand why your upset my only point is that they did correct the problem.
I do not see how they fixed the problem. They simply refunded a customer for what was ultimately a fraudulent transaction that they themselves processed. In my opinion, what they did was credit card theft.
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I don't believe that this was a mistake. This was intentional. Amazon searched for and found another credit card within their system but they were not authorized to use it. They then used it and when their CRIMINAL misbehavior was caught, they offered to cover their theft by offering to pay restitution. This is the same as any other credit card theft. They KNOWINGLY used a credit card without legal authorization, that is illegal as heck. If single person had done that the police would have more than likely been called and the police could be called in this instance.
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I completely understand Tee’s anger and frustration.
Many, many, years ago (and by that I mean decades) when I first started teaching, the school system I worked for did not provide healthcare. So my fiancée (at the time) and I had to take out individual policies and the premiums were drafted directly out of our (joint) checking account. The next year, after we’d gotten married, we converted the policy and there was only one premium instead of two.
Fast forward a couple of years, I went to work in a neighboring school district and they did provide health coverage. So I called our private insurance company and cancelled the old policy.
Low and behold, the very next month they drafted another premium out of our checking account. I called, and probably sounded a lot like Tess (I know, because I’ve heard myself sound that way). The apologized profusely and said that they would send me a check within some number of business days.
Now, can you believe that the same thing happened again the following month! I not called the insurance company, sounding waaaaaaay worse than Tee. I called my bank and found that, while it’s fairly easy to stop payment on a check that you’ve written, it’s much more difficult to stop an automatic draft, since it doesn’t have a check number. But, they said that they could put a stop on the “amount” of the draft. So I told them to do that. Now I was safe, right . . . . .
Wrong, the next month, after the single premium didn’t go through, they split it back up into two policies and charged for them both ! ! ! !
With my banker apologizing profusely and telling me that his hands were tied as far as what he could do, I ended up closing that checking account and opening up new one.
Now, I never give my account routing numbers to anyone. This has cost me because some companies charge extra, or will not do business with you at all, if they cannot directly draft the funds. I also “lose” my cards about once a year or so, just in case.
I like the "Virtual Credit Card" that pz uses but I do not think my back or credit union have that option.
BD
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Well....I am not calling what Amazon did was strictly fraudulent .....but will stand by this: It takes advantage of us as consumers. Advantage in a not so positive manner. It takes advantage of our lack of time to justify reading pages of fine print. It takes advantage of how busy we all are just track in our expenses that we know about and have manage. It takes advantage the same way that if you do not request "detailed billing" with your other service providers such as land line or cell phone, cable or satellite....ad infinitum.
Did Amazon "do the right thing"? It depends on how you define that. ( again....holding my breath that they do as promised )
If they refund all of the charges one can certainly agree that the legal bases are covered without question. And while the apology was nice.....I do not feel a restoration of trust. There was not an explanation offered or any mention of a "mistake". It is more or less a ....we got you because of fine print. The "right thing" never entered the conversation from Amazon's perspective.
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After reading all the comments and seeing what is being done by large and small companies with auto draft makes me wonder why anyone would do business this way. I understand it's faster and things get done but if you add up the time spent not to mention the aggravation I'm not sure it's worth it.
Kimmie and I keep one card active just for internet use and that one as a VERY small cap on it + she keeps an eye on the accounts we do have. Call me old fashion call me whatever you like, one thing is for sure These auto drafts will not be allowed in my accounts as long as I can hold them off.
One day I will have to give in, but I'll go fighting every day not to.
OK sitting down now
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I went into Amazon and deleted my credit cards..2 of them were expired and couldn't be used till I updated. They have a section under my account where you can do this very easily and I will be happy to add my info and not keep it stored on their server. For most of that stuff I use PayPal anyways. I change my password frequently and haven't had a problem since 1999. Hope this helps someone. Pam .☆´¯`•.¸¸. ི♥ྀ.
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For most of that stuff I use PayPal anyways
Except for Amazon - I use PayPal as well...Amazon will not accept PayPal, at least - I have never been able to use PayPal on Amazon....
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Tee I would agree if they did not correct the problem. A mistake was made and they did correct it. They paid all your extra fees you encountered due to their mistake. I think they went beyond what most other companies would do.
Amazon allows you the option to not save the card on file. And it may say in the fine print when they have another valid card on file they will use that to renew your prime membership. When they notified you the other card was not valid that means they were attempting to renew your membership automatically. So by you not answering their request they moved onto another card that was valid. Does not make it right but might be their policy. And this could all be an automated process by the system and not even an individual.
I am aware that my prime membership will automatically renew unless I notify them otherwise. They do send me an email letting me know in advance that it will be renewing and if I want to cancel to contact them. I think it can be changed in your account settings on the site.
So I understand why your upset my only point is that they did correct the problem.
I do not see how they fixed the problem. They simply refunded a customer for what was ultimately a fraudulent transaction that they themselves processed. In my opinion, what they did was credit card theft.
Well what else could they do to fix the problem in your eyes then?
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I wouldnt call that fraud,I would call it a broken system.I have an amazon card ive never used,this could have happened to me just like Tee.Though it wouldnt have done the overdrafts ,that part is just frustration beyond belief.
I have one auto pay,Dish TV,only way I could get it.
As long as they make good,I would give them Kudo's for fixing it.
As stated many times,most companies tell you to stuff it.
I had Well Fargo deposit my pay check to a guy at BofA,and credit me his check,half what mine was AND IT BOUNCED.They took over 3 weeks to fix it,refused to talk to me (Im just a starving student without funds to even EAT!!!),I could go on and on.So neither of those gets my business.
Also amazon treats employees bad....know a guy desperate for a job,got hired there for Christmas rush,turned into a full time gig.He walks something like 10-20 miles a day,i forget,but a lot.
He is thankful to be working so its all relative I guess.
I think its an honest mistake.And they fixed it,thats really amazing.
I will bet money it gets credited too,my only prob with them was a gift I sent,it went to wrong state,same name town,they offered to overnight it free to get there by Christmas,thats pretty danged good.I didnt have to play phone tag hell with em either.
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Since I started this... :D :o ::)
Spuds they have promised to return my money...will really know in a few days. I do expect them to do so - as they did say they would, and I have no reason to doubt.
muebe: - not responding for Sliding Billy...but, from my perspective I think some terms and definitions are in order - and I should have been more clear about what I feel the "problem" is and what the "fix" or solution may be.
The problem was NOT the money itself. The problem was a breach of trust that I felt when Amazon chose to use a secondary card that was never used for renewal in the past. Had I known they would do such - I would have deleted my acct. prior to this. They did so, and I did not receive notification of their intent to do so before or after they took the money.
Again, when we do business on the internet, there are things that WE as consumers must pay attention to. But I believe that Amazon - and all other on-line merchants need to make the process simpler, and STOP the auto renewal process - and/or communicate better to customers how to prevent it, and some opt outs that are more obvious.
I am not whining when I say to you that I am very busy. We all are. And - in that context - wouldn't you ( If you were Jeff Bezos and the Board of Directors) want to modify the system to make it nearly impossible for Amazon to be perceived as Draconian in their "money grab" methodology - i.e. my experience with them?
There is no "venom " in my post-crash analysis of what happened as of now. Just real wonderment at HOW the policy that they operate under could possibly be in the long term best interest of Amazon itself.
When we submit knowingly or not to policies like "auto-renew" I feel we are bit by bit giving up our rights to self-determination, and self-governance. This is just one small example.
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Since I started this... :D :o ::)
When we submit knowingly or not to policies like "auto-renew" I feel we are bit by bit giving up our rights to self-determination, and self-governance. This is just one small example.
Wont be long before we are a cashless society,a couple places already are now,and your worst fears on that will be our new reality,now THATS scary!!!!
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I had this discussion with someone today :D.
Ebay owns PayPal..and PayPal a bank....They can even issue you a PayPal credit card underwritten by Visa. Try to buy something on E-bay , and NOT use a PayPal acct. It is rare that you can do that....
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Tee,
As a friend, it is time to end the rant. As consumers we can only vote with our acceptance, or rejection of their business practices. I don't like the business practices of a lot of companies. I try to avoid them at all costs. Please, lets get back to cooking!!!
Art
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Well...I thought it was time to end it a couple of pages ago ;D...But there have been some interesting comments......and we all have done a lot of business with Amazon.
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THE END